What Mormons Don't tell you!! (20 views)
From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/30/2001 9:21 pm  
To:  ALL    
 
  98.1  
 
Some Excellent Resources for Mormon - Cult Info: 
www.irr.org/mit/bombible.html 
www.Carm.org 
www.macgregorministries.org/ 
Facts: Mormons Wont Tell You When They Call at Your Door. *Source - List Taken from www.MacGregorMinistries.org * 

Documentation for many of these statments can be found at www.mrm.org 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there is salvation only in their church&emdash;all others are wrong. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that those who have been through their temples are wearing secret underwear to protect themselves from "evil". This "evil" includes non- Mormons like you. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU about their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non-Christians immediately. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they think "familiar spirits" are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a "familiar spirit". Leviticus 19;31 says familiar spirits defile one, and are to be avoided at all costs. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be "Heavenly Father" over their own planet! 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that you were once a spirit-child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the Virgin Mary really wasn't a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the "heavenly father" they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Jesus was really Lucifer's brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a "heavenly council" vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!! 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently "forget" this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it! 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the state of Utah, which is predominately Mormon, has a higher than the national average of divorce, wife-beating, child abuse, and teenage suicide. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the "spirit world", a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10- 12.) 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there are many accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision besides he one they present to you, and all are different 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their secret temple oaths are based on the Scottish Rite Masons. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that for years they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their temple. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they expect Christ to return to their temple in Missouri, but they haven't built the temple He's supposed to return to, because they don't own the property. (It is owned by the "Temple Lot Mormons" who have plans o of their own, and won't let the Salt Lake City group buy it. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Jesus' death on the cross only partially saves the believer. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that according to Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible, the demon god of the living dead is called "Mormo". Is it just a coincidence that the Mormons are so concerned with the dead? MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that on their Salt Lake City Temple they prominently display an upside-down star which is a Satanic symbol known as the Goat's head.. Why? 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts a prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which they brutally murdered an innocent wagon train of settlers, of over one hundred men, women, and most of the children, traveling through Utah. 

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well! 

WHY WON'T MORMONS TELL YOU THESE THINGS?The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, are well aware that if these facts were known to the convert prior to baptism, they would have very few converts! The Missionaries are well trained to keep most of these facts from their potential converts.Tragically, many Mormons may not even be fully aware of the doctrines and history of their own church. Every statement on this tract is true. Mormons are encouraged to check out their own publications for documentation of the above. After all, if the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) has the truth, it can stand any amount of investigation. Please do not be afraid to investigate. We are not Ex-Mormons, but Christians defending the Christian Church and its beliefs.Excellent documentation etc. can be found in the Mormon Ministry web sites from our link page. www.macgregorministries.org/links.html 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum




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Edited 7/1/01 10:46:01 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 

From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/30/2001 11:05 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 191)  
 
  98.2 in reply to 98.1  
 
You have problems with a few people using logic to poke holes in the bible, and thus you delete their posts. Yet you decide to visciously attack religions that are SLIGHTLY different from you. Didn't Jesus teach to turn the other cheek? Yet you don't. You violate the two cardinal rules of christianity. 
1.) Due unto others, as you would like them to do unto you. 
2.) Turn the other cheek. 

And you don't even try. Anyone disagreeing is deleted. You bash, but you can't take a bash yourself. Anyone disagreeing, you immediately have to say something to the effect of "Your wrong". 

And your post is complete bovine fecal matter! Special underwear? I could have possibly believed you if you didn't put that in.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/30/2001 11:06 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (3 of 191)  
 
  98.3 in reply to 98.1  
 
Don't even dignify this slander with a response.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Dreamweaver (MIMIKAY)    7/1/2001 12:17 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 191)  
 
  98.4 in reply to 98.1  
 
I came in tonight looking for a Basic Christian Forum, followed yout promo here, decided to read some of the messages so came to this one and promptly decided thisis definately not the place for me.. 
and reminded me just why I quit going to Church all together... 

** shakes her head ** I really do not undersand this.. ( wonders if Jesus would? ) 

~~~~~~~~ am out of here ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/1/2001 12:32 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (5 of 191)  
 
  98.5 in reply to 98.3  
 
DW (DEATHWISH123) wrote (to me):
Don't even dignify this slander with a response.
  I was going to write up a point-by-point refutation of David's latest collection of slander, but, influenced by your posting, and in the spirit of Genesis 7:6, I don't think I'll bother.  I will say this much:  Of the various things that David says Mormons won't tell you, a few are true, and any Mormon will say so; some are grotesque distortions of Mormon beliefs, a few are not relevant, and some are just plain outright lies, with no basis whatsoever in truth.

  I will address directly one of his points, by asking readers to wonder why David would consider Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible to be any kind of credible source, that any Christian should consider anything written therein to be of use in judging any other Christian or group of Christians.  I would suggest that the use of such a reference says much, much more about any so-called Christian who uses it than it could ever be taken to say about the target of any attacks based on such a reference.  One of our own great leaders, Bruce R. McConkie, once wrote, Those who use the devil's tools for any purpose may soon find themselves influenced and controlled by him.Wise persons never seek revelation or guidance through communion with Satan.  Is not the Satanic Bible one of the devil's own tools; and to seek any kind of wisdom or guidance therein, would this not constitute communing with Satan himself?

  I will further ask you to ponder the source of any wisdom found in the Satanic Bible.  Anything that you might think, based on anything from this volume, does it not stand to reason that it is much more likely to be what Satan wants you to think than to be what God wants you to think?  What does this mean, if you find something therein which leads you to believe that a particular religion is evil and to be avoided?  Why would Satan want you to believe that a particular religion is to be avoided?  Would he want you to avoid an evil religion that brings you further under his power?



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Edited 7/1/2001 3:39:45 AM ET by BOB_BLAYLOCK 

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Edited 7/1/01 10:41:41 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 8:00 am  
To:  ALL   (6 of 191)  
 
  98.6 in reply to 98.1  
 
Source www.mrm.org 
Relatives of Massacre Threaten Lawsuit 

The Mountain Meadows Massacre controversy that took place in 1857 will just not go away, despite the LDS Churchs desire to wipe the event away from history as Olympic organizers prepare for next winters Games. A group of descendants from the 120 members of an Arkansas wagon train who were slaughtered in the infamous Utah massacre wants to stifle a scientific report based on the victims remains that were dug up two years ago. The details of the remains would become accessible to the public unless the Utah Division of State History decides to take the threat seriously and keep the report private. Meanwhile, a rival group of descendants would like to see the report published. (Deseret News, 6/23/01) 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 8:02 am  
To:  ALL   (7 of 191)  
 
  98.7 in reply to 98.1  
 
Source www.mrm.org 
LDS Church Leaders Want to Shorten List of Olympic Donations 
While Mormon leaders say they are willing to make a major contribution to next winters Olympic Games in Utah "from a genuine desire to serve this community," LDS apostles Robert Hales and Henry Eyring have asked Olympic chairman Mitt Romney "to withdraw any items that you consider to be less than highly significant." Citing the extensive requests made by the Olympic committee and the stretch on Mormon "financial and human resources," the LDS Church apparently wants to help both organizations avoid the "Mormon Games" moniker. The LDS Church has made several important donations, including a downtown block for an Olympic medals plaza and $5 million to spruce it up as well as a drive to have its members become Olympics volunteers. One item that may be withdrawn is a genealogical research center for the athletes, which would have certainly had an LDS slant since Mormons believe that their ancestors can have works done in their behalf in the more than 100 LDS temples around the world. (Salt Lake Tribune, 6/22/01) 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 8:05 am  
To:  ALL   (8 of 191)  
 
  98.8 in reply to 98.1  
 
Source www.mrm.org 
Utah is Anti-depressant Drug Capital 
The state of Utah is depressed, according to a study by a private company that manages prescription benefits for 45 million Americans. Not only is Utah ranked seventh per capita in the U.S. in overall prescription drug use, but Utahans take more Prozac-style anti-depressant drugs than any other state, averaging 1.1 prescriptions per person compared to 0.7 for the rest of the nation. The study did not shock Utah officials, as most health care experts said the number of depressed patients has gone dramatically up. Interestingly enough, those states with the least among of anti-depressant usage are such stressful places as California, New York, and New Jersey. Those who gave the study said they are not sure why Utah ranked so high. Could part of the reason be that Utahs residents, more than 70 percent who consider themselves Mormon, are trying to work their way to heaven through good works, which is an impossible task? (Salt Lake Tribune, 6/21/01) 

Leavitts Hypocritical in Prosecution of Polygamist 

Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt has been in the news lately as he has made a concerted effort along with his brother, Juab County Attorney David Leavitt, to put polygamist Tom Green in prison for up to 20 years because he married three teen-age stepdaughters more than a decade ago. However, the Leavitts themselves have quite the polygamous past. In fact, their great-grandfather, Thomas Dudley Leavitt, was a proud polygamist. This fact has been lied about by David Leavitt, who recently told a National Public Radio reporter, "None of my ancestors took multiple teen-agers to wife." In truth, Great-Grandpa Thomas Leavitt was 23 when he married Mary Luella Abbott, his 15-year-old step-niece from Ogden, Utah. Another teen-age wife, Adah Ann Waite, was his stepsister. Abbott remained polygamous until her death in 1955, 65 years after Mormon leaders officially outlawed polygamy. Abbotts diary said that her favorite grandson was former Utah Sen. Dixie Leavitt, Mike and David's father. She also wrote that polygamy needed to continue after her death. Even in her dying hour, she pleaded with her family, including great-grandson Mike Leavitt, to never speak against polygamy. Obviously Leavitt has chosen to disobey his great-grandmothers wishes. 

Certainly politics has played a role in the prosecution of Green and his family by the Leavitts, especially when one considers the Leavitt family history as well as the fact that the crime of polygamy, which has previously not been prosecuted for more than 20 years, is currently being openly committed by thousands of other Utahans. "It's sobering," says Marianne Watson, a plural wife from Utah and professional genealogist. "If I was in [the Leavitts'] shoes I would be more cautious." (Salt Lake Tribune, 6/18/01) 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 8:07 am  
To:  ALL   (9 of 191)  
 
  98.9 in reply to 98.1  
 
Source www.mrm.org 
Dead Sea Scrolls May Come to Utah for Games 
The possibility that some of the Dead Sea Scrolls will be exhibited at the Utah Olympic Games next winter look promising, as officials from the LDS Church and BYU have negotiated with Jewish authorities from Israel. Besides several important Dead Sea Scrolls, the exhibit would also feature the Leningrad Codex, which is the oldest copy of the Hebrew Bible in existence and has not left the Russian National Museum since the 1930s. The Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered more than half a century ago at Qumran, a site located near the Dead Sea in Israel and once inhabited by a Jewish sect called the Essenes, have been an invaluable source to scholars. In fact, the discovery of these manuscripts, which are some of the oldest known Old Testament manuscripts, show the accuracy of the Old Testament that is read by Jews, Christians, and Mormons alike. Until 10 years ago many of the scrolls were accessible only to certain scholars who were secretly studying them, but photocopies of the scrolls were finally released in the early 1990s due to immense pressure from scholars who were not part of the original research. Displaying such items will certainly give the Mormon Church worldwide credibility in the public relations push to make Mormonism look more like a biblically-based religion. (Salt Lake Tribune, 6/22/01) 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 8:26 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (10 of 191)  
 
  98.10 in reply to 98.5  
 
Bob, 
Mormonism is Satanism! 

Worship of the dead is Satanism. The familiar spirits, the secret rites, the Entire Mormon religion is Satanic. 

If you want to understand Mormonism you Study Satanism and the rest of the Occult including Freemasons. 

Mormonism is Not Christianity. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/1/2001 12:57 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 191)  
 
  98.11 in reply to 98.10  
 
Familiars are not satanic. Familiars are guardians. Some prefer an animal guardian, while some prefer human or otherwise. Whether you want to admit it or not David, you have a familiar spirit.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/1/2001 1:31 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 191)  
 
  98.12 in reply to 98.10  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) willfully, knowingly, deliberately, maliciously lied:
Mormonism is Satanism!

Worship of the dead is Satanism. The familiar spirits, the secret rites, the Entire Mormon religion is Satanic.
  David, we do not worship the dead, and we do not deal with familiar spirits, and you know this, or at least you know that you have no basis on which to make these deliberately-false statements.



If you want to understand Mormonism you Study Satanism
  The devil's tools, such as the Satanic Bible are for doing the devil's work.  Can any sensible person believe that the use of the Satanic Bible to slander any Christian church is God's work?  I say no, anything that is done using this foul tome is the work of Satan.

  At least you have now shown, to any who might previously have doubted, what the true nature of your character is, and who it is that you really serve.  No true Christian, no true follower of Jesus Christ, would ever even think of using the Satanic Bible to slander other Christians, as you have done.



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 3:16 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (13 of 191)  
 
  98.13 in reply to 98.12  
 
Another Christian reasercher not me used the Satanic Bible to point out that Mormonism is a derivative of Satanism. The Christian Bible does not explain Mormonism because Mormonism is Not Christian. Mormonism is Satanic, Satan is the Original Mormon.
It is Satan that promoted the original Lie that people can become as gods by Disobeying the True and only God. The Mormons are disobeying God and Following Satan in an attempt to become gods.

Genesis 3:4,5 And the Serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die (lie): For God doth know that in the Day ye eat there of, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing (experiencing) good and evil.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said, The serpent Beguiled (Tricked) me, and I did eat.

When the shoe fits wear it!! The shoes of Satan fit the Mormon church, the Mormons are walking in the Satanic shoes of Satan.

Mormons are the ones who believe the Satanic lie that they, by works, can become gods. Christians follow Jesus/God, not the lies of Satan.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 3:56 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (14 of 191)  
 
  98.14 in reply to 98.11  
 
DW,
No I do Not have a familiar spirit. Christians are Saved from familiar spirits.

Familiar spirits become familiar with you In order to Destroy you. They put you in Bondage and captivity to Themselves. Don't think that you control the spirits because physical does not control the spiritual. It is the other way, the spiritual manipulates the physical.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered (become familiar, studied to destroy) my servant Job..

And indeed Satan had become familiar with Job. Satan had studied Job and Satan thought he could destroy Job. Satan destroyed all that Job had, But Job still had God and God delivered Job from Satan.

Leviticus 19:31 Regard Not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be Defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20;6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I (God) will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Leviticus 20:27 A man also or a woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Im sure that you have heard and know these and other Bible Scriptures that Condemn the activity of familiar spirits. It is now up to you to decide if you want to be free and follow God or be manipulated by following evil spirits.

Christians are delighted to have the Constant presence of God with us, keeping us and protecting us.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for He (Jesus) hath said I will Never leave you nor forsake thee.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/1/2001 4:09 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (15 of 191)  
 
  98.15 in reply to 98.14  
 
Geez David, I would have thought you could catch on a little faster. Guardians... human form... do I have to spell it out? A familiar is a GUARDIAN ANGEL. 
And I also see your interpertation skills of the bible is lacking. You have completely misinterpreted one of the most important books of the bible.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 4:42 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (16 of 191)  
 
  98.16 in reply to 98.15  
 
A Guardian Angel would not lead us into sin and rebellion against God.
There are both Holy (Guardian Angels) which are Only for Christians.

Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all (Holy Angels) ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of Salvation?

And There are Evil, lying demonic spirits posing as Guardian Angels.

1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

With both good and evil spirits and influences in the world we need to make judgments and be careful that our actions do not offend God.

Are you referring to the book of Job?






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/1/2001 4:49 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (17 of 191)  
 
  98.17 in reply to 98.13  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Another Christian reasercher (sic) not me used the Satanic Bible to point out that Mormonism is a derivative of Satanism.
  Anyone who uses the Satanic Bible as a reference to try to prove anything is not doing anything to help his credibility as any kind of Christian.  Nor do you do anything to help your own credibility by citing the Satanic Bible even indirctly, by way of this other false-Christian.



Christians follow Jesus/God, not the lies of Satan.
  What is the Satanic Bible, if not a collection of Satan's lies?  And who, in this forum, has cited these lies of Satan in order to support his own point of view?

  Are there any true Satanists participating in this forum?  if there are, I say that you shall know them by this sign:  That they have cited Satan's own lies, as published in the Satanic Bible, in support of their slander against the true Christians.



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/1/2001 4:51 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (18 of 191)  
 
  98.18 in reply to 98.16  
 
Yes. You missed the entire point of Job.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/1/2001 5:19 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (19 of 191)  
 
  98.19 in reply to 98.17  
 
Not to mention that he has also beared false witness.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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   From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    7/1/2001 5:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (20 of 191)  
 
  98.20 in reply to 98.13  
 
David, 
As usual, you are showing your willingness to use any method YOU deem appropriate to justify your behavior. I haven't read so much hatred preached since reading some of the KKK publications. May God forgive you for your sin of hatred and your lack of love. 


Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


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From:  pianomaster   7/2/2001 12:47 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (21 of 191)  
 
  98.21 in reply to 98.2  
 
The LDS really DO wear special underwear! My neighbor friend wears it. 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   7/2/2001 2:52 am  
To:  ALL   (22 of 191)  
 
  98.22 in reply to 98.21  
 
who was it again that said that David doesn't hate mormons? he goes out of his way to discredit them .....

 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/2/2001 7:38 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (23 of 191)  
 
  98.23 in reply to 98.17  
 
Um... Have either you or David ever read any of LeVey's work? LeVay Satanists don't even believe in Satan as anything more than a philosophical concept. I'm not justifying any of LeVay's work, I'm just saying that LeVay Satanists have nothing to do with Classical (or Gothic) Satanists.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/2/2001 8:58 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (24 of 191)  
 
  98.24 in reply to 98.23  
 
I was talking to someone I had just met, when she found out that I am a Christian, she handed me a book that her new boyfriend insisted she read. It was the Satanic Bible written  edited by Anton LeVay. 
I read the forward and skimmed a few pages here and there. The Satanic Bible is not a very big book, it is only about 100 or so pages. 

As I remember the Forward, Made every claim that Satan is real and that, Satan is the loving father god not Jesus. The book often mentions father Satan. 

It is nothing like the Real Bible, which reveals the mystery of life and death, and has pages of History, Poetry, Prophecy, Inspiration, and Promises. 

From what I saw it was just a bunch of Ranting and Raving about God and Christians, and telling people, take/get what you can out of life and to be rebellious doing it. 

*I did see a video clip of Anton LeVay, at his "Church of Satan" in San Francisco, holding a human skull in his left hand and talking about how he worships the Existing Satan. 

I handed the book back to the girl, and said its not a nice book, and she had already made up her mind not to read it. She said that it gave her the creeps, just having it, and went to look for a trash can to toss it. 

My impression was that the normal reaction someone would have to that type of writing is that it is unwarranted criticism of God and that it is an obnoxious book. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   7/2/2001 10:59 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (25 of 191)  
 
  98.25 in reply to 98.10  
 
Adrasteia: 
Just a minor point of Occult contention, as I am certainly no scholar of Mormonism. 
The 'upside down star' is not an exclusively satanic symbol. Long before LaVey adopted the inverse Pentacle as the Sygil of the COS, various groups employed the symbol for various reasons,none of them Satanic. Some traditions today employ the inverse pent as symbolic of the Winter, while Alexandrian Wiccans use it as a symbol of their second degree of initiation. In any event, it's just a star, after all.

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/2/2001 12:29 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (26 of 191)  
 
  98.26 in reply to 98.25  
 
In the Bible Angels are often referred to as Stars:
Job 38:7 When the morning stars (Angels) sang together, and all the sons of God (Angels) shouted for joy. When  God created the earth.

Revelation 1:20 The Mystery of the 7 stars.. the 7 stars are the Angels of the 7 churches.

Satan is an Angel, probably the most powerful Angel. Satan rebelled against God and is now an upside down (rebellious) star/angel.

The upside down star is a Satanic/Demonic symbol. Whether people that are using it know it or not. I think that most people use it Knowing that it is demonic. People are not that naive, and understand that to turn upside down Gods creation is rebellion.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   7/2/2001 12:43 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (27 of 191)  
 
  98.27 in reply to 98.26  
 
Well, that's an interesting perspective. However, the inverse pent has only garnered a negative connotation since the latter half of the 19th century, mostly due to the Occultist 
Eliphas Levi. It was, however, never used as a Satanic symbol until LaVey's C.O.S. adopted the Sygil. 
I'm sure that Alexandrians and other non-satanist groups that use it are aware that some view it as a satanic symbol. I'm also sure that they are aware that it isn't.

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

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The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   7/2/2001 1:55 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 191)  
 
  98.28 in reply to 98.26  
 
erhm..... the pentagram (non-inverted) is the symbol of wicca ... does that mean that wicca is an angelic religion?

 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/2/2001 4:06 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (29 of 191)  
 
  98.29 in reply to 98.23  
 
I haven't studied anything about Satanism, but isn't the point of it that human laws are designed to hinder the human spirit and we should all embrace our inner animal?

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/2/2001 7:47 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 191)  
 
  98.30 in reply to 98.14  
 
>No I do Not have a familiar spirit. Christians are Saved from familiar spirits.< 
Then you don't have a guardian angel? 

As for Leviticus, isn't this also where the passage follows that it is alright to consult the prophets? 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/2/2001 7:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (31 of 191)  
 
  98.31 in reply to 98.26  
 
Satan is an Angel, probably the most powerful Angel. Satan rebelled against God and is now an upside down (rebellious) 
star/angel. 
=-=-=-=-=-= 
That's an interesting viewpoint on symbolic representation. Are Masons also Satanic then? How about the Hebrew people? The Islamic people as well? 
The symbol of the upside down pentagram was even used in the depiction of one of the apostles when they died, does that mean they died in the arms of SATAN? 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/2/2001 8:10 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (32 of 191)  
 
  98.32 in reply to 98.31  
 
I agree. If anything upside down would mean the opposite of what it represents, then wouldn't Paul/Peter (Not sure which one) be the antichrist?

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/2/2001 9:28 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (33 of 191)  
 
  98.33 in reply to 98.23  
 
DR_SHOCK wrote:
Um... Have either you or David ever read any of LeVey's work? LeVay (sic) Satanists don't even believe in Satan as anything more than a philosophical concept. I'm not justifying any of LeVay's work, I'm just saying that LeVay (sic) Satanists have nothing to do with Classical (or Gothic) Satanists.
  I have never seen a copy of the Satanic Bible, much less read anything out of it.  What you say is interesting.

  If something is truly of Satan (that is, of the Satan in which we Christians believe), then any so-called Christian who employs it for any purpose is, in effect, seeking and receiving aid from Satan in connection with that purpose, and I think that it stands to reason that only an evil purpose would ever be aided in this manner.  So if the Satanic Bible is truly of Satan, and it is useful in attacking the LDS religion, then attacking the LDS religion must, in itself, be an evil purpose.

  If the Satanic Bible is not really of Satan, then I don't think it stands to reason that anything therein has any releance whatsoever to anything having to do with any form of Christianity, and the use of it to attack a Christian church is entirely meaningless.

  Either way, David's use of the Satanic Bible to attack Mormonism cuts directly to the heart of his own credibility.

  I notice some postings later on in which David seems to express a belief that this tome really is of Satan, in which case, his use of it should, at the very best, cast serious doubts on his claim to be any kind of true Christian at all, for it is not at all in the character of a true Christian to seek aid from Satan.



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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/2/2001 9:42 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (34 of 191)  
 
  98.34 in reply to 98.33  
 
>>If something is truly of Satan (that is, of the Satan in which we Christians believe), then any so-called Christian who employs it for any purpose is, in effect, seeking and receiving aid from Satan in connection with that purpose, and I think that it stands to reason that only an evil purpose would ever be aided in this manner. So if the Satanic Bible is truly of Satan, and it is useful in attacking the LDS religion, then attacking the LDS religion must, in itself, be an evil purpose. 
Funny. Almost everything in existence has been called the work of the devil by the church at some point in time.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/2/2001 10:17 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (35 of 191)  
 
  98.35 in reply to 98.27  
 
Adrasteia & Lyrk (TOILNTROUBLE) wrote:
However, the inverse pent has only garnered a negative connotation since the latter half of the 19th century, mostly due to the Occultist Eliphas Levi. It was, however, never used as a Satanic symbol until LaVey's C.O.S. adopted the Sygil.
  The latter half of the 19th century; that would put it after construction began on the Salt Lake Temple.

  According to the book Helter Skelter, written by Vincent Bugliosi (who was one the prosecutors in the Charles Manson Family cases), Susan Atkins, one of Manson's followers, associated with Anton LaVey in the late 1960s.  This means, unless LaVey lived to an exceptionally old age, anything he did occurred most of a century after the Salt Lake Temple was completed.

  If LaVey was, in fact, the one who first associated the inverted pentagram with Satanism, then this association certainly did not exist at any time during the design or construction of this Temple.

  As anyone who's had a good look at this Temple knows, it is decorated with many five-pointed star designs, about a third of which point downward.

  I think it's intersting to note, though not directly relevant, that up until the early 20th century, the swastika was used as a symbol by some religions, and experienced some popularity as an aesthetic design, perhaps much the way the YinYang symbol is used today.  Not until a certain radical political group in Germany adopted it as a symbol, and then go on to do some very unpopular things, did it come to have any negative connotation.  (I'm being very careful, here, to avoid any possibility of triggering Godwin's Law.)



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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/2/2001 10:24 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (36 of 191)  
 
  98.36 in reply to 98.35  
 
That German group also used an INVERTED form of the symbol

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   7/3/2001 9:15 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (37 of 191)  
 
  98.37 in reply to 98.35  
 
Lyrk: 
Your suspicions are correct. Anton LaVey was entirely a creature of the 20th century. Equal parts showman, religious satirist, and opportunist. He's not the source to go to when in study of traditional, or Gothic, Satanism (meaning the followers actually worship the Christian Devil). In fact, it's pretty hard to find a good source on Gothic Satanism, since it is almost entirely a construct of the overactive imagination of certain xenophobic religious groups, and rebellious headbanging teens. 
You are also correct in that the Mormon religion predates the Sygil of the C.O.S. I don't know the LDS that well, but I do know the Occult. Besides, as a practicig Witch, I'm very suspicious of anything deemed 'Satanic' by a fundamentalist. Maybe I've just read too many Jack Chick tracts.

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   7/3/2001 9:29 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (38 of 191)  
 
  98.38 in reply to 98.35  
 
Lyrk: 
Interesting note concerning Godwin's Law: almst any dialogue on the net involving conservative Christians and neo-Pagans will eventually devolve into a shouting match concerning the religious persuasion of the leader of that certain german political faction; we'll call him Dick Van Patten here, to avoid the Godwin Effect: 
"Dick Van Patten was a Witch/Pagan!" 
"No. DVP was Christian." 
"Uh-uh. He was PAGAN!" 
"He SAID he was Christian!" 
"Just goes to show, you can't trust a Witch!" 
And on and on, until the Pagan goes for precedent... Martin Luther's infamous 'The Jews and Their Lies'. Which, of course, doesn't prove anything about DVP, but if the presumably protestant Christian didn't know Luther was a horrible ani-Semite, it tends to rattle them to a humorous extent. :) 

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/3/2001 9:42 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (39 of 191)  
 
  98.39 in reply to 98.33  
 
Bob, this isn't directly to you, its to everyone about the Satanic Bible written by A.S. LeVey. (Please excuse the typos, I'm a bit rushed.) 
LeVey ripped off most of these beliefs from some very sketchy writings by the late Al Crowley. Crowley (along with some other Golden Dawn scholars and people from the O.T.O) were the first to separate religion out into two different philosophical paths; Right-Hand and Left-Hand. These two paths have nothing to do with good or evil, but rather how one chooses to conduct their life. Right-Hand Pathers choose to worship a God (and possibly acknowledge other Gods) while Left-Hand folk choose to not worship anything (although they might acknowledge Gods or even follow their teachings), hence engaging in "self worship". The key word for all of this is "worship". 

LeVey decided to make a religion out of "self-worship" in the mid seventies (although he did it poorly and made the rest of us Left-Hand people look dumb as doorknobs). The whole basis of this religion are the Nine Satanic Statements, The Nine Satanic Sins and The Eleven Rules of the Earth. Most modern Satanists just use these as the basis for their beliefs rather than listening to anything else LeVey had to say since most are intelligent enough to realize that he stole most of his work from other sources. The basis of these statements is to "embrace your inner animal" by realizing that humans are just as prone to animalistic behavior as any other creature. However, LeVey's mistake was to educate people to run with this ideal (as seen in most of his rituals), rather than enforcing the original moral codes which he himself wrote. Even both Crowley and Austin Osman Spare (who he stole most of his concepts form) were very strict about separating indulgence for growth from indulgence just for the sake of rebellion or self-gratification. 

A quick note on the inverted pentacle: 

LeVey choose this symbol because it is often associated with the God Baphomet who represents self-development through exploration (indulgence) and unbridled knowledge. The inverted pentagram has been used for years for all sorts of purposes (even pro-Christian purposes) throughout the world, but usually emphasizes the dark aspect in mankind. In that manner, its much like any other ancient symbol; Open to interpretation. 

A good 90% of modern Satanists are generally anti-Christian because 1.) they're young and only into it for the rebellion factor or 2.) hate people who won't change their opinions when confronted with solid proof to the contrary. LeVey himself was just an anti-Christian rebel who liked to complain about the Church as are many of his followers. However, none of them worship "Satan" as is the Biblical concept although they often refer to him as an actual individual. For proof of their worship of Satan as a concept rather than an actual spirit, please note how all the Satanic Statements begin with "Satan Represents". To them, Satan is a figurehead. Nothing more, nothing less. 

One thing I have to give LeVey's modern followers is that they're very strict about staying within the law. A drug possession charge can often get you excommunicated and any sort of cruelty act against children or animals (which violates the Rules of Earth) will most likely put you in an early grave. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/3/2001 10:14 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (40 of 191)  
 
  98.40 in reply to 98.39  
 
Dr Shock
Your post is very informative.
I would disagree on two points though.

Right and left hand worship is also a Bible concept.

O.T.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise mans heart is at his right hand; but a fools heart at his left.

N.T.
*2 Corinthians 6:7 By the word (Bible) of Truth, by the Power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left.

This interesting verse is telling Christians to wear the whole armor of God for personal protection against both right hand (other Christians) and left hand cults.

I do find it hard to believe that Satanist follow the law, dont use drugs, and dont hurt other people.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
 
From:  Dr_Shock   7/3/2001 10:52 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (41 of 191)  
 
  98.41 in reply to 98.40  
 
The quote you gave about right and left hand has nothing to do with worship as much as it does with Middle Eastern coustom. To say that you have something at your "right" means that you have it ready to use or that you are using something. Some Muslims often say "don't keep your sword at your right" when counciling others on hate related issues. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Kiwimac   11/9/2001 10:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (43 of 191)  
 
  98.43 in reply to 98.15  
 
This is sort of level of understanding I have come to expect from fundamentalist bigots such as yourself, take your hatred and stupidity elsewhere! 
Kiwimac
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/10/2001 4:12 am  
To:  Kiwimac   (44 of 191)  
 
  98.44 in reply to 98.43  
 
 Hi,

 

The Mormons are Claiming to be the true Christians and I am examining their beliefs to see if they are Christian, and they are not!

 

I dont think anyone can call that hatred. It looks like you are makeing a decision based not on facts but based on emotions.

 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Kiwimac   11/10/2001 12:25 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (45 of 191)  
 
  98.45 in reply to 98.44  
 
Nope, 
Its based on 20+ years study of comparative religions in general and Mormonism (Restoration churches) specifically. 

Mostly I hear this sort of judgement from that sub-breed of fundamentalist who wouldn't know compassion if it bit 'em on the knee. 

If you want to convert folk to your POV then using love is much more productive then trying to convince them that they are "wrong", no matter HOW good it makes YOU feel, how certain of your own doctrinal rectitude. 

Kiwimac
 
  
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  From:  bernie@nationwide.net (A20EEWWSFMZ1)    11/14/2001 8:44 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (46 of 191)  
 
  98.46 in reply to 98.44  
 
Right! Christians are not emotional.

oops! forgot and they do not float.



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Edited 11/14/01 11:49:42 AM ET by A20EEWWSFMZ1 
  
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  From:  bernie@nationwide.net (A20EEWWSFMZ1)    11/14/2001 8:49 am  
To:  Kiwimac   (47 of 191)  
 
  98.47 in reply to 98.45  
 
Sorry.

What is POV?

Last time I heard that it stood for Privately 0wned Vehicles.
 
  
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  From:  Kiwimac   11/14/2001 9:50 am  
To:  bernie@nationwide.net (A20EEWWSFMZ1)    (48 of 191)  
 
  98.48 in reply to 98.47  
 
Sorry Friend, 
POV = Point of View 

Kiwimac (But I do like the Privately Owned Vehicles)
 
  
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  From:  solzknight   11/28/2001 11:08 pm  
To:  Kiwimac   (49 of 191)  
 
  98.49 in reply to 98.48  
 
sorry kiwi but Most of his list of things mormons won't tell you are actualy correct. And no i am not a mormon hater. I am LDS "sort of" and the stuff on that list is why i am having my name removed from their rolls. It scared me to find out what kind of stuff they don't tell you about the core belife until i was about to leave on a mission. IMHO there is no way any person who beliver the stuff he listed can call themselves christian. I don't want to become the god of my own planet. Theis garments "special underwear" makes me think of pagan robes. and last but not least Joseph Smith was in fact a mason when he founded the church. The lds theatre in slc shows the film based on the founding of their church and it says so even in there. So you may think anybody who posts aginst the lds religion is just bashing it but hey thats just your opinion. JUST LIKE THIS IS MINE 

A new forum 




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  From:  boB_kcolyalB   11/29/2001 12:06 pm  
To:  ALL   (50 of 191)  
 
  98.50 in reply to 98.49  
 
Rev. Reed (SOLZKNIGHT) lied:
sorry kiwi but Most of his list of things mormons won't tell you are actualy correct.
  Of the statements in the list at the beginning of this thread, only the following are true, and any Mormon will say so:
there is salvation only in their churchall others are wrong. 
that that they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.

  The following statements contain some element of truth, but are intentionally distorted or mixed with untruth so as to be deceptive:

about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which they brutally murdered an innocent wagon train of settlers, of over one hundred men, women, and most of the children, traveling through Utah. 
about their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non-Christians immediately. 
that for years they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their temple. 
that Jesus was really Lucifer's brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a "heavenly council" vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!! 
that Jesus' death on the cross only partially saves the believer. 
that the "heavenly father" they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all. 
that their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third. 
that their secret temple oaths are based on the Scottish Rite Masons. 
that there are many accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision besides he one they present to you, and all are different 
that they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden. 
that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan. 
that they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors. 
that they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you. 
that those who have been through their temples are wearing secret underwear to protect themselves from "evil". This "evil" includes non- Mormons like you. 
that you were once a spirit-child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth. 

  and the following statements are flat-out lies, and I am sure that the person who originally published them knows very well that they are lies, with no basis whatsoever in truth:

that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted. 
that Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well! 
that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the "spirit world", a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10- 12.) 
that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it! 
that the state of Utah, which is predominately Mormon, has a higher than the national average of divorce, wife-beating, child abuse, and teenage suicide. 
that the Virgin Mary really wasn't a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ. 
that their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts a prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). 
that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism. 
that there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently "forget" this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ. 
that they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth. 
that they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be "Heavenly Father" over their own planet! 
that they think "familiar spirits" are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a "familiar spirit". Leviticus 19;31 says familiar spirits defile one, and are to be avoided at all costs. 
that women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity. 


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Edited 11/29/01 3:13:48 PM ET by BOB_KCOLYALB 
  
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  From:  Kiwimac   11/29/2001 2:43 pm  
To:  ALL   (51 of 191)  
 
  98.51 in reply to 98.50  
 
Dear All, 
As a former LDS Elder, i can tell you many of these supposed teachings are "bollocks", taken from sermons by JS, jr or Brigham Young, speaking about topics they were just a misinformed on as any other person! 

Prophet = messenger, not "infallible dispenser of information." Conclusion: JS jr et al were as capable of muddleheadedness as any other mortal. 

Furthermore I am, now, an Elder in the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS)mostly because I disagreed with such LDS doctrines as Temple ordinances; no priesthood for women etc. 

One last comment, my father was a mason & my uncle is one, I have seen masons "up close" to suggest that they could be organised enough to be a threat to any religion or state is heiferdust. Most masons couldn't organise a "party in a brewery", even if their lives depended on it! 

Kiwimac 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/29/2001 3:11 pm  
To:  Kiwimac   (52 of 191)  
 
  98.52 in reply to 98.51  
 
So Kiwi what you are saying is that you are a Better Mormon than Bob Blaylock and the rest of the Utah crew?

 

Are the Mormons from Utah going to heaven according to you, or is it just your particular denomination of Mormons that will Populate the planets of the cosmos?

 

And lastly does your church endorse the language that you use on the various Delphi forums?

 

Just trying to keep things straight.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Kiwimac   11/29/2001 5:51 pm  
To:  ALL   (53 of 191)  
 
  98.53 in reply to 98.52  
 
David, 
What an interesting post! 

Nope, not a better Mormon, probably not even a better Christian, just a different one for reasons which are sufficient for me. 

Will there be Mormons in heaven?, Yep, probably more Mormons that other assorted fundamentalists! 

My language is my own, what problem do you have with "heiferdust" or "bollocks"? 

Kiwimac
 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   11/29/2001 8:36 pm  
To:  Kiwimac   (54 of 191)  
 
  98.54 in reply to 98.45  
 
To Kiwimac; in your post to David, you told him (David) that if he wanted to convert people to his point of view, that he would have to use love in order to do it. I would just like to know how you define the word "love". I hear that word an awful lot from people such as yourself when confronted with some unpleasant truths or viewpoints. When someone tries to point any kind of error, you usually come back with a statement like, well, "we ought to just love one another" or soemthing like that. Maybe I'm missing something. Just how do you define the word "love"? (When I say "people such as yourself" I meant the very liberal person who's all set to accept just about anything in the name of "love") 
  
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  From:  Kiwimac   11/29/2001 8:45 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (55 of 191)  
 
  98.55 in reply to 98.54  
 
Dear Friend, 
You say "... I would just like to know how you define the word "love". I hear that word an awful lot from people such as yourself when confronted with some unpleasant truths or viewpoints. When someone tries to point any kind of error, you usually come back with a statement like, well, "we ought to just love one another" or soemthing like that. Maybe I'm missing something. Just how do you define the word "love"? (When I say "people such as yourself" I meant the very liberal person who's all set to accept just about anything in the name of "love") ..." 

There is no great secret definition of Love, just caring so much for another that their needs / wants become more important than our own. 

Jesus tells us that we need to love each other as we love our ownselves & then proceeds to demonstrate that love in the kind of life & death that he lived and suffered. 

As far as "Unpleasant truths or viewpoints" are concerned, MY concern here is that you and I are mortal and hardly know from one day to the next what our own motivations are, how then can we judge anothers? Especially how can we judge anothers motivations so well as to decide what unpleasant truths they need to hear? 

Kiwimac 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 11/29/01 11:52:25 PM ET by KIWIMAC 
  
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  From:  solzknight   11/30/2001 11:17 am  
To:  boB_kcolyalB unread  (56 of 191)  
 
  98.56 in reply to 98.50  
 
So now i lie. Well we wern't all born perfect such as yourself with the infinite knoledge of the universe we just suffer by with trial and error. But mostly just trial. I said most of the list is correct but you said i lied. But then you showed that in fact most are correct by your own post. Just because you don't like the wording don't fight the truth. Judge not least ye be judged. Your opening line judged me. So if you are so sure your religion is so right why don't you follow it. 
Just assuming here but this is a new login isn't it? That would mean that someone who is in charge of this forum has expressed to you that you are not welcome here but here you are just like most of the utah mormons i live with forcing your RELIGION on others. What do you get a commission for every person you harrass with your self righteous, selfserving dogma. You say you are lds and you are definding your faith. So prove the rest of us wrong, not with words but with actions. You can type anything in delphi, but can you back it up in the real world. Probably not because here in utah where it is the higest concentration of lds members we also have one of the highest domestic abuse, teen pregnancy and child abuse. So given that all of there arn't commited by lds, for that high of a percentage many are. 

WELCOME TO ZION ALL MAN LAWS DON'T NEED APPLY IF YOU HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD AND PAY YOR 10% TITHE. Lets all mary multiple wives even if they are under age and it isn't a legal marriage. Force our views on the rest of the state even though it dosen't affect you in any way, shape or form. THATS RIGHT I AM ALLKNOWING AND WHAT I SAY IS BEST IS SO DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO. 

Just in case you are to stubborn to figure it out the last part is sarcasm. 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/30/2001 11:38 am  
To:  solzknight   (57 of 191)  
 
  98.57 in reply to 98.56  
 
Hi,

You are correct, Bob Blaylock has lost his privilege of posting on the forum for being continually and obsessively Rude.

 

The membership name that you replied to is Bob_kcolyab which is basically Bob Blaylock (kcolyab) backwards.

 

Also I would like to point out that I repeatedly asked Bob not to create links in his postings to Mormon sites. He refused on Many occasions to comply. In the end I had to Edit the links from Bobs postings, but sneaky Bob, returned and re-editing his posts placed the links back in. I guess that somewhere in all of this we are supposed to find high regard for the Mormon practices. 

 

Thank you again for your very informative postings on the Mormon Cult.

 

And I join you in Every Prayer Hoping and Praying that Many Mormons Including Bob will come to the Marvelous Truth of Eternal Life in Jesus and Jesus alone and reject the Abomination of Mormonism.

 

The Fact is Many of the Ex-Mormons make the best Christians once they come to realize the Truth of Jesus and Reject the Lies of Mormonism they become Wonderful dedicated Christians!

 

All The Best!

Have a Jesus :o) Day!

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  clBoabB_loky   11/30/2001 12:52 pm  
To:  solzknight   (58 of 191)  
 
  98.58 in reply to 98.56  
 
SOLZKNIGHT whined:
That would mean that someone who is in charge of this forum has expressed to you that you are not welcome here but here you are just like most of the utah mormons i live with forcing your RELIGION on others. What do you get a commission for every person you harrass with your self righteous, selfserving dogma.
  I'm not trying to force my religion on anyone.  David Brown has, for quite some time, persisted in knowingly, willfully publishing blatant lies slandering my religion.  He doesn't like being called on this outrageous and very unchristian conduct, and apparently, neither do you.  Now he's even lying about why he has banned me from this forum.  He wrote:
I repeatedly asked Bob not to create links in his postings to Mormon sites. He refused on Many occasions to comply. In the end I had to Edit the links from Bobs postings, but sneaky Bob, returned and re-editing his posts placed the links back in.
  Not once, not one single time, have I engaged in the behavior of which he accuses me, and he very well knows this.  At one point, I had been posting links to Bible passages which I was citing, and David objected because I was using the LDS online Bible, one of the very best resources on the net for such links; but not once did I ever go back, after he had edited out a link, and put it back in.  David made this accusation, bearing false witness against me, knowing full well that it was not true; just as he continually bears false witness against my religion.

  I do not expect to convince anyone in this forum that my religion is true.  That's not what I am trying to do.  I'm merely trying to counter the blatant lies that are being told about my religion.  David wants to be able to lie and deceive unchallenged, and he doesn't want me in this forum because I insist on challenging him when he lies.

  I think it should be obvious to any rational, unbiassed observer, which one of us, David or me, has been more honest and open, and who has conducted himself more in a manner indicative of a true Christian. 
  
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  From:  clBoabB_loky   11/30/2001 12:54 pm  
To:  solzknight   (59 of 191)  
 
  98.59 in reply to 98.56  
 
  One more thing, both for you and for David:  If you don't like being accused of lying  if you don't like being called a liar  try telling the truth. 
  
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   From:  solzknight   12/1/2001 12:27 am  
To:  clBoabB_loky unread  (60 of 191)  
 
  98.60 in reply to 98.59  
 
Wow you totaly missed that part about judging again. Not that i thought you would. I didn't claim to know why you were restricted from this site. Just that you still felt the need to go where it was clear you wene not wanted by the moderator. 
Here is just a little suggestion for you if you are going to defend your religion do so but that doesen't require you to say i lie and whine just because you don't like what i say. It doesen't mean it was a lie it just means that you must not be totaly comfortable with your church so you lash out in very UNCHRISTIAN like behavior. All of my postings are either my opinion or my take on my experience. So unless you know my life better than i do don't you EVER call me a liar just because you don't agree with what i have to say. 
ONE LAST PIECE OF ADVICE IF THIS SITE IS SO ANTI MORMON WHY DO YOU KEEP SHOWING UP. LOOKING FOR A FIGHT TO PICK ARE WE????? How childish. you had best go back to primary and learn to play like a nice person. 
Here is one fact that any true beliver of the LDS religion will agree with: Pray to god in earnest and you shall be answered (maybe not a direct voice of god answer) So when i had doubts about the LDS religion i prayed and you know what, i found out that my misgivings about that religion went away when i seperated myself from it and began my own journey to salvation . Does this mean i am saved???? ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO WILL BE SAVED AND WHO WON"T. So to say otherwise is to speak for God, and i persoanly am not so arrogant to think that i do. DO YOU PERPOSE TO KNOW WHAT WHAT GOD IS THINKING. If you by some stretch of the imagination think you do by all means part the sea for us all to see.
 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/1/2001 7:40 am  
To:  Kiwimac   (61 of 191)  
 
  98.61 in reply to 98.53  
 
Hi Kiwimac,

<Will there be Mormons in heaven?, Yep, probably more Mormons that other assorted fundamentalists! >

By your picking and choosing who goes to heaven and who doesnt you have revealed that you Really do Not Understand Christianity and what it is to be a Christian.

 

All Christians go to Heaven!!

 

1John 5:11,12 And this is the Record, that God hath given us Eternal Life, and This Life is in His Son (Jesus). He that hath the Son hath Life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not Life.

*Notice Mormons that Life is (first) in the Son not in the Father. You Mormons Do NOT have Life because you do not have the Son of God. Mormons Do Not acknowledge that Jesus Is God as is the Father. To say that Jesus the Son of God is not God is just like saying that our earthly father is not a human because sons are different than the fathers. Sons are what the father is. Our earthly fathers are Human therefore we are Human. Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God is God Exactly as His Father.

 

I Know for a Fact that I am Going to Heaven!!!!!!

 

This One thing I Know and am Very Confident of is that Heaven Awaits Me!!!!!!

 

How can I know? How can I be so Certain? Easily! Because of What Jesus Did!! And Not what I do!

 

The Death of Jesus (For ALL of My SINS) and the Resurrection of Jesus (For My Everlasting Resurrection Life) Guarantee that I Will be in Heaven. You see I can be Certain about my future in Heaven because I have become a Christian, and in being a Christian I have Entered Into What Jesus has Already Done, it is FINISHED, it is COMPLETE it is for Me and for Anyone who chooses to Become a Christian by receiving forgiveness for their sins in the blood of Jesus and Resurrection life in the Resurrection life of Jesus.

 

You see for the Christian Heaven is not a far away place. I am Living in heaven Right Now because Heaven (Jesus) is Living inside of me. The Holy Spirit has come into me and united with my human spirit making me a Born Again New Creation Child of God!!

 

This is precisely why Mormonism and every man made Religion for that matter is such an Abomination to God, because they say that you cannot be certain about Heaven. But the Bible teaches that Because of the Resurrection of Jesus we are to Trust in Him and that we are to be Certain the we will Resurrect just Like Jesus. To say that man has to add his works or his actions to complete the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus is the Utmost of Blasphemy. You Mormons think that you are being humble and that you are being pleasing to God by working on your own redemption & salvation. These very works of yours are what has Removed you from God and have made you an Enemy of God. The Real True Jesus does Not need your false humility and He is not interested in your works and attempts to add to what He has already accomplished on His Cross and at His Resurrection.

 

Isaiah 64:6 But we (Humans) are all as an Unclean thing, and All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we do fade as the leaf; and our iniquities (sins), like the wind, have taken us away (away from God).

 

Stop working, Stop relying on the teachings and customs of men and Start putting your complete Faith and Trust in the Living Resurrected Jesus.

 

And Then You will Know Jesus and in knowing Jesus, You Will Know Heaven even here on earth.

 

Jesus Bless You :o)

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Kiwimac   12/1/2001 6:56 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (62 of 191)  
 
  98.62 in reply to 98.61  
 
Dear David, 
You seem bent on taking what I say and using it for purposes I never intended. So why am I surprised, it seems most evangelical / fundamentalist christians do the same. 

FYI david, I have been a Christian for 30 years now & I grow day by day with my Lord, to assume that I am not fulfils the humourous quote about such assumptions, ie they make an ass of u and me. 

Heaven is indeed part of the inbreaking rule of God here on earth but it is also that state of being which Christians (and others) have described as being (at least one of) the post-death states. 

Just as a cloing point, you say: "...This is precisely why Mormonism and every man made Religion for that matter is such an Abomination to God, because they say that you cannot be certain about Heaven ..." 

Every religion there is, except perhaps Satanism (and NOT for the reasons necessarily in your mind) are responses to the God seen in Nature, thus they cannot be abominations moreover some of them show evidence of being God-Authored, Ikenatonism, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Islam. As for Satanism I don't include it because it is (IMO) a Christian religion specifically formed as a kind of adolescent revolt against God more than anything else. 

I don't expect you'll agree with me, you certainly seem to have gone out of your way to misunderstand anything I've said but there we are, hope springs eternal!~ 

Kiwimac 

Edited 12/1/2001 10:02:12 PM ET by KIWIMAC 

Edited 12/1/2001 10:04:48 PM ET by KIWIMAC 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 12/1/2001 10:05:35 PM ET by KIWIMAC 
  
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  From:  lokc_BoabBly   12/2/2001 9:47 pm  
To:  solzknight   (63 of 191)  
 
  98.63 in reply to 98.60  
 
SOLZKNIGHT whined:
Wow you totaly missed that part about judging again.
  And who are you to pass judgement on me for this?  If it's wrong on me to pass judgement on people for lying and slandering, then its at least as wrong for you to pass judgement on me for passing judgement on liars and slanderers.



so you lash out in very UNCHRISTIAN like behavior.
  If you will look over all the threads about Mormonism, you will see a long pattern of David or other participants posting blatant lies about my religion, and of me, mostly in a calm, rational matter, responding by telling the truth about what my religion believes, teaches, and practices; from my own firsthand experience in this religion.  Over and over and over again, I have been given the sames lies to which to respond, and I have told the same truth, and I have been falsely accused of misrepresenting my own beliefs, by a host who arrogantly presumes to know my own beliefs better than I do.  By this point, David has to know that the representations which he makes of my religion are false or, at the very least, that the basis on which to regard them as true is highly questionable.  Yet he continues to repeat the same lies, over and over and over again.  The very best possible face that can be put on David's behavior is to say that he is acting with a careless, wanton disregard for the truth; if not an active intent to lie and to deceive.  I suppose I should continue to respond in a calm, rational manner, but I am growing weary.  David will not conduct himself as a true Christian, and it is tiring to conduct myself in an appropriate manner in the face of David's continued behavior.  I have so much patience, for those who may speak untruth out of innocent ignorance, but it is clear that this is not the position from which David speaks.



ONE LAST PIECE OF ADVICE IF THIS SITE IS SO ANTI MORMON WHY DO YOU KEEP SHOWING UP. LOOKING FOR A FIGHT TO PICK ARE WE?????
  David Brown wants to lie about what my religion teaches and practices, and he wants to have his lies go unchallenged.  I have no power to stop him from lying, but I do have the ability to challenge him when he does; and as long as I have this ability, I will do so.  Perhaps I don't accomplish a great deal of good by doing so, but at least I accomplish this:  That those who read David's lies will also read my challenges to these lies, and will at least be that much less likely to be deceived by them.



Does this mean i am saved???? ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO WILL BE SAVED AND WHO WON"T. So to say otherwise is to speak for God, and i persoanly (sic) am not so arrogant to think that i do.
  It may surprise you to know that I agree with what you have written here.  But take a look at what David has written in the message right after your own.
I Know for a Fact that I am Going to Heaven!!!!!!

This One thing I Know and am Very Confident of is that Heaven Awaits Me!!!!!!
  Neither you nor I would say such an arrogant, vainglorious, presumptuous thing.  I think that in your beliefs, you are a lot more like me, and a lot less like David, than you realize.  It seems to me that it is not rational for you, then, to be defending him, in opposition to me.  Would he similarly defend you?  He went on to write:
This is precisely why Mormonism and every man made Religion for that matter is such an Abomination to God, because they say that you cannot be certain about Heaven. 
  My beliefs are an abomination to David, because I am not certain about whether or not I will make it to Heaven.  If any consistency is to be expected, then your beliefs are no less abominable to him, for the same reason. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/3/2001 9:42 am  
To:  lokc_BoabBly unread  (64 of 191)  
 
  98.64 in reply to 98.63  
 
I think the difference is Solzknight is acknowleging that he in himself does not have the ability to enter into heaven. That Heaven is strictly the work of God.

 

The Mormons are teaching that sinful man does have the ability to perform deeds that will get them into heaven and also somehow make them a god.

 

Like Solzknight I am acknowleging that I cannot do anything worthy of Heaven but I am acknowleging that Jesus Completed my redemption and that in Jesus I am Safe, Sound and Heaven bound!

 

If Mormons Actually read the Bible they would notice that the promises of Heaven are Past tense Meaning that Heaven is Already available for the Christian and not something to be achieved in the future by the works of sinful man.

 

Ephesians 2:4-10

But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith he loved us, 

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened (made us Spiritually Alive) us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship (God works on us we dont work on Him), created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath fore ordained that we should walk in them.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/3/2001 9:47 am  
To:  lokc_BoabBly unread  (65 of 191)  
 
  98.65 in reply to 98.63  
 
A difference between Cults like the Mormons and True Christians is that Cults are Working to get into Heaven.

 

Christians are Already in Heaven, because Jesus has Already Resurrected from death, and Jesus is Now in Heaven and Jesus is Inside the Born Again Christian.

 

We Christians are already in Heaven and working in Partnership with God!


David



David A. Brown
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  From:  kyBlbol_cBao   12/3/2001 10:11 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (66 of 191)  
 
  98.66 in reply to 98.64  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) lied:
The Mormons are teaching that sinful man does have the ability to perform deeds that will get them into heaven and also somehow make them a god.
  This isn't what Mormonism teaches.  
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/3/2001 11:52 am  
To:  kyBlbol_cBao unread  (67 of 191)  
 
  98.67 in reply to 98.66  
 
Source: http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/works.html

  Work out your Salvation

What (work) must I do to be saved?

Cult groups and Christians alike often wonder how much "work" is needed to be counted as righteous before God. They often ask us this question.

Groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses with their endless meetings, door to door ministry, placing their magazines and counting meticulously all the time they spend in these pursuits and efforts, believe that somehow God will approve of their efforts and reward them. They can never be certain that they have "done enough" and always feel driven to do more. 

Mormons, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) likewise have their "works"--temple ceremonies, wearing special garments, avoiding certain foods or drinks, tithing, temple worthiness pursuits, researching and being baptized in proxy for their ancestors and others, and missionary stints for their young people. They believe these efforts will bring God's approval and a higher state of salvation. Their works are ongoing as well right up to death.

Seventh-day Adventists with their meatless diets, worshiping on the "sabbath" avoiding all work on certain days, wearing certain clothes, avoiding jewelry etc. are also on a works trip to try and impress God. 

In many Christian churches we still find many rules and requirements for one to be a "good" Christian. Those that don't fit the mold set by the denomination are looked down upon.

Many people partially quote the scripture Philippians 2: 11-13 and threaten you to "....work out you own salvation with fear and trembling." and advise you to "get to work" They fail to finish the quote that assures us that "God is at work in us".

So, does our salvation depend on our good works and good deeds? 

If so, how many, how much, and how do I know the quota I have to reach? 

What if I don't quite make it? Am I then lost? Do I have no hope of salvation?

The following is just a very brief overview of this subject but will give the reader an introduction into the topic people raise about "grace and works". 

First off, regarding Salvation we can be assured through Scripture that we are saved due entirely to Christ's grace. The Greek word for "grace" means "unmerited favor", that is, a "gift" given freely with no restrictions. We cannot "earn" grace.

"For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no one should boast." (Eph. 2: 8,9 ).

There are many other scriptures saying the same thing, so the point is made, we are saved by grace alone and there is no way we can work for it. 

However, being human in a "works"-oriented world, we think we must work endlessly to try and earn our way with God. Even Jesus' disciples wondered and asked Him, 

"They said therefore to Him (Jesus), "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, 

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent". (John 6:28,29).

Wow, what an answer--the work of God is to believe in Jesus Christ, who will then extend salvation to us as a free gift if we but receive Him as our Savior, repent, and invite Him into our lives (John 1:12,13). 

So what about all the scriptures about works? They are all related to the subject of faith, not salvation.

There will be good works in our lives IF we have the indwelling Christ. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Works are a RESULT of salvation, not a CONDITION for it. 

When Christ is in your life, you just can't stop talking about what He has done for you, and because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it will be no chore to read and study the Bible, help others, and share the message of salvation. 

Works cause our FAITH to grow, not our salvation! "Faith without works is dead"--a scripture always misapplied by JW's to get you to "work out your own salvation", when salvation is not the topic, FAITH is!

We will get rewards from God based on our godly works--these will be a wonderful bonus to our salvation. We'll only know the extent of the "crowns" or "rewards" when we finally get to be with Christ . These are in addition to our free gift of salvation. How wonderful it will be to hear Him say "Well done, thy good and faithful servant"!

The goal is to have a real relationship with God in this life and for eternity after death! 

The gospel message is simple: Believe and receive, doubt and go without! God has freely given His salvation by grace to all who would repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Jesus Christ is Almighty God manifest in the flesh, (John 1:1-14) and Jesus Himself said, "Unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). 

The cults have not only presented a counterfeit "salvation", but also a counterfeit "Jesus". Find your way to the real Jesus and you will enjoy real salvation, and incidentally, because you are saved, real satisfying "works" that will build your faith. You will then be in the company of all believers through the ages who can confidentially declare that they "know they have eternal life".(1 John 5: 11-15). 

And, 
Have a Jesus :o) Day!
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  solzknight   12/4/2001 12:42 am  
To:  lokc_BoabBly unread  (68 of 191)  
 
  98.68 in reply to 98.63  
 
The part about judging is how you decided i was lying when all that i said was according to my own experiences and knoledge. I have passed no judgment and have called you no names and have only pointed out that you called me a liar without any proof. aka Judging me. 
As for what i meant by not knowing if i would go to heaven is that when you pass on you await the second coming and then we are all judged. Only then can anyone be sure they are going to heaven or hell. To assume otherwise is arrogance, to presume to know the final judgment of god. 

And about you being an uninvited guest here, David has made it clear that you are unwelcome here. However you are still here a real caring christian might get the hint and obey the wishes of the master of the house "so to speak" At least i would a place where the proprietior made it clear i was not welcome. But hey thats just me. For all i care stay you actualy liven up the conversation, but mostly in a, semingly to me, rude way. 

Bob one thing i must say is that i have never met someone who preaches their view and their religion as you do. No that is not a complement, should you preach to convert, one would realize not to try to convert thoes who do not wish to be converted. For you your religion may be right, but for many here in this forum, it seems that they, do not feel the same way, be a man respect their wishes. 

And the last point of this post, the starting line of all your posts to me Solzknight lied Solzknight Whined. How childish i think you should follow my primary suggestion.
 
  
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  From:  solzknight   12/4/2001 12:56 am  
To:  lokc_BoabBly unread  (69 of 191)  
 
  98.69 in reply to 98.63  
 
Bob i wasn't defending david or his views just pointing out that from my own experiences with the lds church that most of his original post was, for the most part true. You may have a more extensive knoledge of the church than i do. But that does not change the knoledge and experience i got from my membership, priesthood, misgivings and finaly my struggle to leave the church. 
I am sure you noticed the nickname on my first post Rev.Reed. I quit the lds church about 11 years ago, but they still drag their feet when it comes to taking my name off of their rolls. In that time i have sought out my own path and it led me to my current calling. I am currently serving as an Army Chaplin, and in the next month when my commission is up i will move into the ministering field. Denomintion,,, Protestant. 

Yes bob some of our views are alike but many are not.
 
  
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Message 70 of 191 was Deleted    



  From:  lalyBbok_ocB   12/6/2001 5:39 pm  
To:  solzknight   (71 of 191)  
 
  98.71 in reply to 98.69  
 
SOLZKNIGHT wrote:
Bob i wasn't defending david or his views just pointing out that from my own experiences with the lds church that most of his original post was, for the most part true.
  Actually, the list is mostly true, but only because of a semantic trick.  Every entry begins with MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU, followed by some alleged statement of Mormon beliefs.  Most of the sentences are literally true.  For example, it is literally true that MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the Virgin Mary really wasn't a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ.  The author wants the reader to think that Mormons believe that God had sex with Mary, but will not admit this belief to non-Mormons.  The truth, of course, is that Mormons do not believe this at all, and have never been taught this; for this is not, and has never been, a doctrine of the church.

  Most of the other sentences in that list, attribute beliefs and practices to us, which are either entirely false (that is to say, they bear no recognizable similarity to anything which we actually believe or are taught) or which are grotesque distortions of actual beliefs.

  If you are telling the truth about having once been a member of the Mormon church, and if, as a member, you paid attention to what you were taught, then you would know, from firsthand experience, that the representations being made in the opening post about Mormon teachings and practices are either entirely false, or else grotesquely distorted.

  The purpose of that posting is not to enlighten, but to deceive.  It is not to educate people about Mormonism, but to slander and attack it. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/6/2001 7:28 pm  
To:  lalyBbok_ocB unread  (72 of 191)  
 
  98.72 in reply to 98.71  
 
Well Bob,

 

I must say that I am Deeply Disapointed that you would bring your Mormon doublespeak here. And I shudder when I realize that these are the very same accomplished Tricks & Lies that you and other Mormon missionaries use in the very homes of unsuspecting people who have invited you into their homes after answering a knock at their door by a couple of Mormon con artists. It is a shame that you Mormons use so much trickery and deceit in your attempts to remove people from the One and True, Living, Loving, God in Christ Jesus.

 

Source: www.mrm.org/articles/birth.html

 

 Mormonism's Teaching Concerning the Virgin Birth 
Compiled by Bill McKeever 

 

One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is the belief that Christ was virgin born. The Bible teaches that though she had not yet had physical intercourse with a man, she miraculously conceived and bore a son. 

 

Mormon leaders have insisted they believe in the virgin birth, yet they give a description far removed from that held by Christians throughout the centuries. The following quotes verify that the Mormon Church maintains a position regarding the birth of Christ which has never been accepted in Christian circles. 

 

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The [Mormon] Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7). 

 

"Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and an immortal father" ([Mormon] Gospel Principles, pg.57).

 

-- Msg. Edited see the next post for the Full Version --

 

Conclusion 
 

You might ask, "How can they say Christ was born of a virgin when leaders have consistently described an act common to the reproductive process?" This is accomplished by changing the definition of the word virgin. Since Mormonism teaches Mary did not have sexual relations with a mortal man, but instead was impregnated by an immortal man, Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase virgin birth. As Bruce McConkie said, "For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466). 

 

When one considers that the LDS Church also teaches that every human born on earth is a literal child of God, the above quotes become even more blasphemous. Mormon leaders have maintained that all humans, Mary included, were born first in a spiritual state known as the pre-existence. If Mormon leaders are telling the truth when they say that God physically impregnated Mary, then we have no other recourse than to assume the Jesus of Mormonism was created by way of an incestuous relationship. 

 

http://www.mrm.org/articles/birth.html



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/6/2001 7:34 pm  
To:  ALL   (73 of 191)  
 
  98.73 in reply to 98.71  
 
 Source www.mrm.org/articles/birth.html
 Mormonism's Teaching Concerning the Virgin Birth 

Compiled by Bill McKeever 

One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is the belief that Christ was virgin born. The Bible teaches that though she had not yet had physical intercourse with a man, she miraculously conceived and bore a son. 

Mormon leaders have insisted they believe in the virgin birth, yet they give a description far removed from that held by Christians throughout the centuries. The following quotes verify that the Mormon Church maintains a position regarding the birth of Christ which has never been accepted in Christian circles. 

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The [Mormon] Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7). 

"Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and an immortal father" ([Mormon] Gospel Principles, pg.57). 

"[Jesus Christ] was willing to make payment because of his great love for mankind, and he was able to make payment because he lived a sinless life and because he was actually, literally, biologically the Son of God in the flesh" ([Mormon] Messages for Exaltation, pp.378-379). 

"God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh ...The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father ...He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women, was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct" (The [Mormon] Seer, Orson Pratt, pg. 158). 

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Journal of [Mormon] Discourses, Brigham Young, 8:115). 

"...I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of [Mormon] Discourses, Heber C. Kimball, 8:211). 

"Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father ...Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body" ([Mormon] Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, Joseph F. Smith, pp.125,126). 

"Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" ([Mormon] Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18). 

"Christ was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg.547). 

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg.742). 

"As far as this life is concerned, [Jesus] was born of Mary and of Elohim; he came here as an offspring of that Holy Man who is literally our Father in heaven. He was born in mortality in the literal and full sense as the Son of God. He is the Son of his Father in the same sense that all mortals are the sons and daughters of their fathers" (Bruce McConkie,[Mormon] Mortal Messiah 1:330). 

"The Father had a Son, a natural Son, his own literal Seed, the Offspring of his body" (Bruce McConkie, The Promised [Mormon] Messiah, pg.355). 

"There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple" (The Promised [Mormon] Messiah, pg.468). 

"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First [Mormon] Presidency and [Mormon] Council of the [Mormon] Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg.150). 

"Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh..." (The [Mormon] Articles of Faith, James Talmage, pp. 466-467). 

Conclusion 

You might ask, "How can they say Christ was born of a virgin when leaders have consistently described an act common to the reproductive process?" This is accomplished by changing the definition of the word virgin. Since Mormonism teaches Mary did not have sexual relations with a mortal man, but instead was impregnated by an immortal man, Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase virgin birth. As Bruce McConkie said, "For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The [Mormon] Promised Messiah, pg. 466). 

When one considers that the LDS [Mormon] Church also teaches that every human born on earth is a literal child of God, the above quotes become even more blasphemous. Mormon leaders have maintained that all humans, Mary included, were born first in a spiritual state known as the pre-existence. If Mormon leaders are telling the truth when they say that God physically impregnated Mary, then we have no other recourse than to assume the Jesus of Mormonism was created by way of an incestuous relationship. 
 
http://www.mrm.org/articles/birth.html



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/7/2001 11:22 am  
To:  lalyBbok_ocB unread  (75 of 191)  
 
  98.75 in reply to 98.71  
 
Hi Bob,

 

I have to point out again that you are on banned status from this forum. This forum has a strict policy that once banned a poster cannot return  even under a new name. I have bent that rule for you and allowed you to come back with about 5 additional new names, each one getting banned for continually calling people liars.

 

In your replies you offer Nothing in defense of what Mormons Believe or Practice and you continually referrer to others as liars, this conduct is Totally Unacceptable here. 

 

Since you are not providing anything in support of what you as a Mormon believe and only continue to come here with anger and slander I will now take the step of Deleting each of your posts.

 

Sorry that it had to come to this but you have been warned many, many times in your many postings on this forum.

 

I do Pray that you will in time stop Playing Games with God and stop this Most foolish of beliefs, that you are a god.

 

Remember Always that the Real Jesus Loves you and Died for you!! Way different from the Mormon fake LDS jesus who makes you work & Tithe to him before he loves you.

 

Turn to God and be Saved!

David



David A. Brown
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Message 76 of 191 was Deleted    



  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/7/2001 12:58 pm  
To:  ALL   (77 of 191)  
 
  98.77 in reply to 98.1  
 
Yes Bob, you are still banned.

Oh and by the way you are still using the "L" word.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum



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Edited 12/7/2001 4:05:10 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  solzknight   12/8/2001 6:00 pm  
To:  lalyBbok_ocB unread  (78 of 191)  
 
  98.78 in reply to 98.71  
 
Sorry bob but the truth was not all in the semantics. Live your life with blinders on if you like but i won't. 
  
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  From:  boky_alocBlB   12/10/2001 6:15 pm  
To:  solzknight   (79 of 191)  
 
  98.79 in reply to 98.78  
 
SOLZKNIGHT wrote:
Sorry bob but the truth was not all in the semantics. Live your life with blinders on if you like but i won't.
  Tell me this, then:  You claim to be an ex-Mormon.  Sticking with the one example I picked out of the list, when you were an active Mormon, were you ever taught, and did you ever believe, that the Virgin Mary really wasn't a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ.  Did you ever hear of this teaching from any source that wasn't trying to use it to discredit Mormonism?

  Speaking for myself, the answer to each of these questions is no.  I have never been taught this, I have never believed this, and I have never heard of this belief from any source that wasn't using it to try to discredit Mormonism.  I do not know anyone else who believes this, or has been taught this.  To claim that this is something which Mormonism teaches, and which Mormons believe, is false.

  I note that in the article that was posted here, claiming to support this doctrine with quotes from various prominent Mormon leaders, all but one of the quotes are taken out of context, to indicate something very much other than what the speakers intended.  The one exception is a quote by Orson Pratt, who later retracted that statement, and admitted that he was very mistaken in having made it.

  Other than the Pratt quote, the remaining quotes say nothing about the actual mechanism of Jesus' conception; they merely refer to the belief that Jesus was truly the physical, genetic son of God.  Is this not what all Christians believe?  
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/10/2001 7:14 pm  
To:  boky_alocBlB unread  (80 of 191)  
 
  98.80 in reply to 98.79  
 
 they [Mormon Leaders] merely refer to the belief that Jesus was truly the physical, genetic son of God.  Is this not what all Christians believe? 

 

Absolutely Not!!

 

Christians in Now Way believe in a Physical God, except for the Incarnation of Jesus.

 

God is Spirit and Not Genetics (Physical).

 

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that Worship Him Must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

 

BTW Bob, since you are so busy trying to sidestep the issue of the Virgin Birth of Jesus, maybe you can tell us how many Wives you think Jesus had while He was here in His physical form?

 

David



David A. Brown
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From:  lBBb_koloyac   12/11/2001 9:55 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (81 of 191)  
 
  98.81 in reply to 98.80  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote: 
[Quoting me] 
they [Mormon Leaders] merely refer to the belief that Jesus was truly the physical, genetic son of God. Is this not what all Christians believe?
Absolutely Not!!
This is interesting. The belief that Jesus is the literal son of God is one of the definining beliefs of Christianity. I hold this belief; while you, it appears, do not; and yet you claim to be a Christian, while, at the same time, presuming to tell me that I am not a Christian. Yours is truly a bizarre position, David.

Tell me this, David: If God is not Jesus' true father, then who is? 



Bob, since you are so busy trying to sidestep the issue of the Virgin Birth of Jesus, maybe you can tell us how many Wives you think Jesus had while He was here in His physical form?
We don't know. The Bible is silent on the subject of whether or not Jesus was married, as are any authoritative sources of LDS doctrine. I think that most Mormons assume that Jesus never married. Personally, I think this is a foolish thing to assume, since it would have been highly abnormal for a man, in the society and culture in which Jesus lived, to have remained unmarried into his thirties. If Jesus had truly deviated this far from the norms of his culture, I think it stands to reason that there would have been some mention of this in the Bible. Lacking any explicit statement on the subject from any credible source, it is most logical to assume that the most normal condition is what existed. There's a very interesting article on the subject at ***. I'm not affiliated in any way with the organization that runs this site, The Cambrian Episcopal Church of the Grail, and I know very, very little about them, but I agree with the conclusions reached in this article. I know that you will disagree very strongly with this article and will probably be tempted to censor it. I challenge you to show some courage, and rather than censoring it, to provide logical and rational arguments against it. 




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Edited 12/11/2001 1:02:45 PM ET by LBBB_KOLOYAC



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 12/11/01 4:16:53 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/11/2001 1:52 pm  
To:  lBBb_koloyac   (82 of 191)  
 
  98.82 in reply to 98.81  
 
Hi Bob,

 

Wow! You really revved up the Mormon double speak in your last post!

 

I notice in All of you posts that you do almost anything to avoid actually expressing an opinion, especially one in regards to Mormonism. I can only imagine how terrible it is to be a Mormon and not be allowed to actually have any of your own opinions. 

 

First things first, Jesus is God and has Always Existed as God. Jesus was not created during the Virgin Birth. Jesus Changed [Metamorphous] into a human form. That is that Jesus/God changed in appearance to take on the appearance of a Human.

 

Christian believe that Son of God & Son of Man are also descriptive titles of Jesus. Jesus is God and being God, Jesus has Always Existed and will always exist. Jesus was not born into existence by God because Jesus is God, hence the descriptive title, Son of God. Son of God & Son of Man are also clarification that Jesus is both God and Human.

 

Jesus is God. God has revealed Himself to mankind as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is also the Son of God, meaning that He is as His Father is. For instance, angels are sons of God by creation. Humans become sons of God by adoption. Jesus is not created and Jesus is not adopted. Jesus is God always existing as God. Jesus is the begotten Son of God. This means that Jesus is God just like his Father; just like a bird is just like the father bird, a fish is just like the father fish, or a human is just like the human father. Philippians 2:6,7 (Jesus) Who, being (existing) in the form (Morph, (3444)) of God, thought it not robbery (misrepresentation) to be equal (Equal, =, same value) with God: But made Himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form (Morph, (3444)) of a servant and was made in the likeness (sameness) of men (mankind).

 

Jesus new resurrection body is a Spiritual body. Jesus did not need a new body nor did He need to take on the body of a human, He did it for us. Matthew 17:1,2 And after six days Jesus talketh with Peter, James and John his brother and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart (different area) and (Jesus) was transfigured (Metamorphoo [Metamorphous], (3339)) before them: and His face did shine as the sun and His raiment (clothing) was white as the light. Jesus was momentarily glorified in His physical body, revealing that Jesus in His physical body was still without sin. The Father would never have glorified Jesus in His physical body had sin been present, we sinful humans cannot be glorified in our physical bodies we depart our sinful bodies to receive a new glorified Spirit body. 

 



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/11/2001 1:53 pm  
To:  lBBb_koloyac   (83 of 191)  
 
  98.83 in reply to 98.81  
 
Bob,

 

The reason that you Mormons Believe that Jesus was born Physically by God as a man and somehow became a god is because that is what you believe. You believe that you will become a god and them that you will populate you own planets.

 

Mormons also believe that Salvation in ONLY for the Males and that a Mormon Woman MUST be Married, MUST be pleasing to their husband, and Must have Children. The Mormon wife is Given a Secret name that the Mormon Male Will Call out to her, thus bringing her into Mormon Heaven. And Mormons teach that Jesus was Married to Mary Magdalene and to two other women as well. The good Mormon jesus is a bigamist.

 

Now If Jesus were a good Mormon He would have to be married at least once and have a wife here on earth in the physical, in order for them to populate their own planet together.

 

But Jesus IS NOT a Mormon and Jesus Did not get married.

 

THE WIFE of JESUS is THE CHURCH. The Church is the Bride of Jesus! And this is Not in a Physical way but a Spiritual way.

 

If anyone reading this thread thinks that Mormonism gets creepier and yuckier the further you get into it, you are right. I actually am sorry that I ever had to look into the Sick, Perverted, Twisted, Mormon Teachings of the Mormon LDS Church!

David

 

 



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/11/2001 1:56 pm  
To:  lBBb_koloyac   (84 of 191)  
 
  98.84 in reply to 98.81  
 
Bob,

 

If you have a point to make then Please make your point using your opinions, material, and information.

 

If you send people to another web site to make your point then next week the web site is down or gone then, no one will know what you are talking about.

 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  lBBb_koloyac   12/11/2001 2:29 pm  
To:  ALL   (85 of 191)  
 
  98.85 in reply to 98.81  
 
  Let the record show that our host does not want you, the readers, to have access to the evidence at the web site which I had referenced in my previous posting, and has censored the link.  if David truly believed in the truth of his position, he would not be afraid to let you see opposing evidence, for he would be confident that his own position would stand up to such opposing evidence.  As always, I denounce this censorship as an act of abject cowardice and dishonesty; and as a clear mark of a man who knows that his own position cannot stand up to honest examination. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/11/2001 2:38 pm  
To:  lBBb_koloyac   (86 of 191)  
 
  98.86 in reply to 98.85  
 
Bob,

 

Why dont you go back and read Post #84 then you can stop your foolish parade.

 

You can post your material on this forum. But dont provide links that might or might not be there that are crucial to you discussion.

 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  lBBb_koloyac   12/11/2001 3:18 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (87 of 191)  
 
  98.87 in reply to 98.83  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
The reason that you Mormons Believe that Jesus was born Physically by God as a man and somehow became a god is because that is what you believe.
  Nice bit of circular logic there.  We believe that Jesus was begotten by God, and born a a man, because that is what the Bible very clearly unmistakably says.  He was part of the Godhead, however, from the very beginning of this creation.  His existence, and his status as part of the Godhead, did not begin with his physical birth.



Mormons also believe that Salvation in (sic) ONLY for the Males
  This is absolutely false.
and that a Mormon Woman MUST be Married
  We believe that the highest level of exaltation will be available only to married couples.  Nothing in our belief system suggests in any way that one gender has a stronger claim on this status than the other.  I don't know that this is doctrinal, but my own view is that at this level, a husband and wife will function as a team, and that it would be impossible for to function at this level without the assistance of a spouse.
MUST be pleasing to their husband, and Must have Children.
  This is absolutely false.
The Mormon wife is Given a Secret name that the Mormon Male Will Call out to her, thus bringing her into Mormon Heaven.
  This is based on a recognizable LDS ritual, but is so far distorted as to bear little resemblance to the doctrine on which it is based.  I am not entirely at liberty to explain this bit in any detail, but I will say this much:  The meaning which it holds is nothing like the meaning which is here attributed to it.
And Mormons teach that Jesus was Married to Mary Magdalene and to two other women as well. The good Mormon Jesus is a bigamist.
  This is false.  Mormonism teaches nothing about whether or not Jesus was married.  As I have said before, I think most Mormons assume that Jesus never married, though I, personally, do not agree with this assumption. 
  
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  From:  lBBb_koloyac   12/11/2001 3:41 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (88 of 191)  
 
  98.88 in reply to 98.84  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote: 
If you have a point to make then Please make your point using your opinions, material, and information.

If you send people to another web site to make your point then next week the web site is down or gone then, no one will know what you are talking about.



You can post your material on this forum. But dont provide links that might or might not be there that are crucial to you discussion.
The site which I referenced makes a very good argument, much better than I could, for the notion that Jesus might have been married. It makes this argument purely from solid biblical and historical evidence. Perhaps most relevant for this forum, it is not a Mormon source, and so you will have no basis to denounce it as such. I could simply Copy/Paste the article into a posting here, but there are two very good reasons why I should not. 
The article is of such size, that putting it inline in a discussion would be disruptive to the discussion. Much better to provide a link, which can be followed by anyone interested in reading the article and examining the evidence offered therein. 

To Copy/Paste it into a forum such as this would be a violation of the copyright on that article, held by the organization which publishes it. It would be illegal for me to copy it in this manner, and it would be illegal for you to allow it to be posted here.
There is always a risk, when you link to resources outside of your own control, that the resource may go away, leaving you with a dead link. It is folly, in my opinion, to let such a risk prevent one from linking to resources which are of great value in supporting one's point of view. I note, from the , that the site to which I linked is on a domain which was first registered nearly three years ago, and is paid up for a bit more yet than a year, so it's not likely to go away very soon.



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Edited 12/11/01 7:29:01 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/11/2001 4:59 pm  
To:  lBBb_koloyac   (89 of 191)  
 
  98.89 in reply to 98.88  
 
Bob,

 

The Gospel of Jesus is Open to All. So Whatever you are not at liberty to reveal is not a part of the Gospel of Jesus.

 

The hidden and secret games that the Mormons are playing have No resemblance to Christianity.

 

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world Amen.

 

The True Disciples are told by Jesus to go out into All the World to make known by Preaching and spreading the Good News about the resurrection of Jesus.

 

There is Noting secret and nothing is supposed to be secret about the Kingdom of God/Jesus.

 

By making secrets, Mormons further reveal that they are a foolish cult. A cult of lies, manipulation and deception.

 

Heaven does not get better because you are married. And there is NO indication that Jesus was Married in the Bible. Because Jesus wasnt married on earth. The Christian Church is the Bride of Jesus. Just as a Rib was removed from the side of Adam to make a bride for Adam out of the flesh and bone of Adam. Jesus on the Cross shed Blood from His Side. Blood that would Cleanse the sins of His new Bride and give His new Bride Everlasting Life. The Rib taken from Adam for a Bride is Prophecy & Teaching of Jesus on the cross and His Bride the Church.

 

No One needs a Secret password to enter Heaven. The Entrance into Heaven has been made known. It is Jesus and His shed blood on the cross that has paid the penalty of death for our sins and made open the way into heaven and the presence of God. Jesus as our Savior is Verified in His Resurrection of Everlasting Life. There is Noting you can add to the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is Perfect and Complete. So stop trying to invent your own heaven and Start to Enjoy what Jesus has Already Provided for you!

 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  solzknight   12/11/2001 11:13 pm  
To:  boky_alocBlB unread  (90 of 191)  
 
  98.90 in reply to 98.79  
 
No bob i was not taught that but not all of the rest are lies. 
And i am now having trouble beliving david to be sincere about letting you explain youy part by repetedly deleting all of your links.
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/12/2001 4:16 am  
To:  solzknight   (91 of 191)  
 
  98.91 in reply to 98.90  
 
Hello, 
YOu dont know me and i dont mean to interrupt, but it seems that the only way to learn about each other is to allow different opinions to be expressed. David, your Christianity is strong enough to allow us to view the opinions and ideas of the Mormon church. 

I admit that personally i view Mormonism as a cult, but i do NOT think that the answer is to ban people and delete posts. How could you ever expect Bob to respect your view if you do not respect his? Wow...what a radical idea!! Respect even in disagreement. 

I apologize but you guys are so nasty to each other...with name calling and closed minds that it doesnt look like any Christianity i have ever seen. Shame on all of you! David...Jesus ate with sinners and prostitutes. They were his friends. He didnt call names. He is your model. Allow these people their views. STOP telling them what they think and listen....perhaps you might reach people through friendship...that is how your LORD did it! 

peace, 
karen

  
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/12/2001 5:25 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (92 of 191)  
 
  98.92 in reply to 98.90  
 
Hi Karen10051,

 

Thank you for your post.

 

Lets also acknowledge that Religion is a heated subject when discussed and debated. I dont enjoy this type of discussion-debate. I would Much rather be posting to a Christian about the Praises of Jesus than debating words and phrases.

 

But on the other hand Much is to be learned from this type of debate. The seriousness of the topic lends to the seriousness of the discussion. Christianity vs. Mormonism is not a flavor opinion like what is your favorite coffee, it is about Eternity and it is about Life and Death.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/12/2001 5:55 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (93 of 191)  
 
  98.93 in reply to 98.92  
 
David, 
I agree that it is not trivial, but I guess you and i are very different. I do not wish to insulate myself and speak only with like-minded people. I enjoy debate and i think it strengthens our own position when we must defend it in a logical and thinking manner. 

In truth, Christ did not insulate himself with like-minded people. He moved among all. As well, "serious" debate does not have to entail name-calling. 

Karen

  
  
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  From:  lBBb_koloyac   12/12/2001 12:30 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (94 of 191)  
 
  98.94 in reply to 98.91  
 
karen (KAREN10051) chastized us, writing:
I apologize but you guys are so nasty to each other...with name calling and closed minds that it doesnt look like any Christianity i have ever seen. Shame on all of you!
  You are absolutely right on this point.  Shame on all of us, myself included.  I know that I should conduct myself in a more Christian manner, the better to set an example of what my own religion really stands for.  I usually seek to conduct myself appropriately, but it seems very difficult, at times, when I am up against someone who, in my own perception, refuses to do likewise.  
  
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  From:  lBBb_koloyac   12/12/2001 12:41 pm  
To:  solzknight   (95 of 191)  
 
  98.95 in reply to 98.90  
 
SOLZKNIGHT wrote:
No bob i was not taught that [I assume you are referring to the belief that God engaged in a physical sex act with Mary in order to conceive Jesus.] but not all of the rest are lies.
  So the bit about God having sex with Mary is a lie  do you agree?  What items in that list do you think are not lies?  I haven't time to refute every one, but I will gladly respond to some reasonable number of them.  Looking over that list myself, I only found two or three at most that were entirely accurate depictions of what I, as a Mormon, have been taught, and what I have believed.  Many are outright lies; but most are distortions, having some basis in truth, but are, as written, intentionally misleading.



And i am now having trouble beliving david to be sincere about letting you explain youy part by repetedly deleting all of your links.
  Actions speak louder than words.  David is, indeed, telling us much more about his character, and the strength of his beliefs, by his actions, than by anything he has said or written.  
  
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  From:  lBBb_koloyac   12/12/2001 12:45 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (96 of 191)  
 
  98.96 in reply to 98.93  
 
karen (KAREN10051) wrote:
I do not wish to insulate myself and speak only with like-minded people. I enjoy debate and i think it strengthens our own position when we must defend it in a logical and thinking manner.
  Again, I find myself in agreement with you.  In fact, I consider such debate to be a vital part of the process by which I figure out what I, myself believe.  Nothing sharpens and clarifies to me my beliefs, more than being challenged on them, and being compelled to defend them. 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   12/12/2001 12:56 pm  
To:  lBBb_koloyac   (97 of 191)  
 
  98.97 in reply to 98.96  
 
We are in agreement Sir, and I thank you for your kind response. In a thinking world, if we would all take the time to listen, challenge wisely and answer in love, we would be so much better off. 
karen

<#### src="http://www.geocities.com/prisca107/karen.swf" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="230" height="210">  
  
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  From:  Alexander G. Thwarpton (GOD_IS_KING)   12/19/2001 4:09 am  
To:  Kiwimac unread  (98 of 191)  
 
  98.98 in reply to 98.53  
 
Kiwimac: You are not to judge who goes to the great beyond and who isn't. David has shown, multiple times, that the mormons are not christian, and are not assured a place in His Right Hand. Only <i> true </i> Christians can walk with Christ. 
But there's still hope! You can be redeemed! 

GOD IS KING!!!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/19/2001 5:30 am  
To:  Alexander G. Thwarpton (GOD_IS_KING) unread  (99 of 191)  
 
  98.99 in reply to 98.98  
 
Hi God_is King!

 

Thanks again for the Excellent posts.

 

I also dont think people are being fooled by these lame Mormon attempts to cover up and hide what they do practice and believe.

 

It is so Obvious that there is No hope in Mormonism and Joseph Smith. I too hope that Mormons will lay aside pride and selfishness and Seek after a true Relationship with God in Christ Jesus.

 

Is your e-mail down? I tried to e-mail you twice.

 

E-mail me if you get a chance.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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   From:  oyBa_BbocKll   12/19/2001 9:50 am  
To:  Alexander G. Thwarpton (GOD_IS_KING) unread  (100 of 191)  
 
  98.100 in reply to 98.98  
 
GOD_IS_KING wrote:
Kiwimac: You are not to judge who goes to the great beyond and who isn't. David has shown, multiple times, that the mormons are not christian, and are not assured a place in His Right Hand. Only true Christians can walk with Christ.
  When, in the first sentence quoted above, you tell Kiwimac that You are not to judge,  Does the You refer only to Kiwimac, or to all of us mortal men?  Most would suppose that you meant the latter, but in the very next two sentences, you appear to claim, for yourself and for David, the very same power to judge which you had previously denied to You.  By what authority do you claim this right, while denying it to others? 
  
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From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/24/2001 5:52 pm  
To:  ALL   (101 of 191)  
 
  98.101 in reply to 98.100  
 
The one true fact about Mormonism being a false religion, is that the Bible, the only inspired Word of God never mentions the coming of Joseph Smith, only the second coming of Jesus. How can one believe the book of Mormon, when the Bible specifically forbids the addition or deletion of anything in His Word which is what the book of Mormon would be, an addition? I have had the privelege of being visited by Mormons twice. By the time we got through with our discussion, they were leaving shaken and on the verge of crying. They could not show any reference from the Holy Bible that would justify the book of Mormon, while I could show them several that proved it unscriptural! 
Aside from the fact it's hard to believe that God picked this one man to change the teachings of His Son; that Smith believes he was guided by an agel named Moroni, when Gods messenger in the Bible was always Gabriel; that the so-called Godly plates that the book of Mormon was translated from were never seen by anyone other than Smith and 11 of his closest relatives who swear the angel took them back after the translation [leading anyone to believe they probably didn't exist]; althought he claims it was during a great revival that God directed him to do this, written history shows no record of any revival going on at that time; that 8 years after this so-called message from God, he applied for membership in a local Methodist Church; that he was tried in 1826 for being a conman and bilking farmers out of money; The detailed history and civilization described in the book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas; that they were supposed to be devout Jews, but didn't and don't follow the Jewish Laws; although the 1830 translation by Smith was suppose to be God-inspired and correect, many changes have been made since then, and the list goes on. I believe if one is going to commit to anything that they should first investigate and see if there is a reason to commit! All these things tell me, that Mormonism isn't worth commiting to! 

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/25/2001 1:32 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (102 of 191)  
 
  98.102 in reply to 98.101  
 
Hi,

 

Excellent Post!

 

When you have a few verses handy, that you are dealing with in regards to the Mormon missionaries and Mormonism in general, Please Post a Few.

 

Im sure myself and many others would find them very useful.

 

You might want to post them on this Thread and then start a new thread titled. Biblical Answers to Mormons or something.

 

Thanks Again.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/25/2001 7:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (103 of 191)  
 
  98.103 in reply to 98.102  
 
I'm sure you know about 
Revelation 22:18-19  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 

Surely no Godly man would read this and blatantly do what it commands us not to do! And although I know we are not bound by the full Jewish law, the following is the same command given to the Jews. It's pretty straight forward about changing anything. 

Deuteronomy 4:2  Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 
Deuteronomy 12:32  What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. 

Of course there is also the fact that we are told: 
[1] If anyone teach any doctrine other than what we preach: 

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 

1 Timothy 6:1-5 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 

[2] Warnings of their coming: 
Matthew 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 

Matthew 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 

and [3] that their is mention of only one leader of the Church and that is Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith then, and now their present leader and "seer", claim to be the mediator between them and Christ, but we know this isn't possible as: 

1 Timothy 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 

Hebrews 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 

These are just a few that disprove the book and doctrine of Mormon. There are more and I will chart them and post them later. We must also keep in mind if there were to be any prophets coming before the second coming of Jesus, we would have let us know in His Word, for: 

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 

Therefore we know it says what it means and there are no hidden surprises. I have other posts to get to here and other places, so I will bid you adieu, my brother, for now. 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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Message 104 of 191 was Deleted    



  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/26/2001 6:36 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (105 of 191)  
 
  98.105 in reply to 98.104  
 
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 
Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. 

If you'll notice it makes a point, we are to add to or diminish anything that He commands. That doesn't say there won't be more, it just says that we can only add what He commands! We have what He commanded in the first legal English translation which was inspired by God, the KJV. This is the Word of God. Anything else is a perversion or variation. Either way they are against both these commandments, no matter what order they came in. The order and the way all these books cross-reference with each other to support one another is proof enough for a true believer. The only things in the Book of Mormon that cross-reference with the Holy Bible are the verses that the Book of Mormon directly stole from the Holy Bible.You can be a believer and believe what was originally given, or you can be a religious theologian and try to rationalize everything in the Bible to your way of thinking, instead of understanding Gods intention. If you read and understand exactly the way it's written, there is no confusion.

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/27/2001 6:22 pm  
To:  ALL   (106 of 191)  
 
  98.106 in reply to 98.105  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
  It appears that you chose to delete my previous message, rather than to attempt to address the points I made therein.  If Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 mean that nothing more can be added to God's word, then everything written after that must be taken to be in violation of these passages.  This includes most of the Old Testament and all of the New Testament  all that was added to God's word after this commandment was given not to add to God's word.



If you'll notice it makes a point, we are to add to or diminish anything that He commands. That doesn't say there won't be more, it just says that we can only add what He commands! We have what He commanded in the first legal English translation which was inspired by God, the KJV. This is the Word of God. Anything else is a perversion or variation. Either way they are against both these commandments, no matter what order they came in.
  This is to say that God cannot ever have anything more to say to Mankind than what he had said as of nearly two thousand years ago.  Who are you to impose such a restriction upon God?  I don't buy this at all.  I believe that God has had, and will yet have, much, much more to say to Mankind, than what is recorded in The Holy Bible.  And whatever he has to say, you will not be listening.  You ignore him at your own peril.



The only things in the Book of Mormon that cross-reference with the Holy Bible are the verses that the Book of Mormon directly stole from the Holy Bible.
  All that you show by saying this is that you have never read the Book of Mormon, and that you know nothing of its contents. 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/27/2001 6:46 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (107 of 191)  
 
  98.107 in reply to 98.106  
 
I have read it, I do know it, and it is not from God. If you will check all the scripture in it, other than the ones Joseph Smith concocted for his gain, most read word for word from the Bible. In some instances he rearranged the sentence or changes one or two words, but the fact remains; it is mostly plagarized. What is not plagarized is unproveable by any other books of history. I honestly thought about joining before I knew God, just because of the fact, I could have more than one wife. Alas that law has been written out, and I know the truth of God now, so I couldn't possibly accept the Book of Mormon. This was just another attempt of Satan to draw people from God true teachings. May God show you and the reast of the LDS believers the truth before it's too late.
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/28/2001 12:13 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (108 of 191)  
 
  98.108 in reply to 98.107  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
I have read it [The Book of Mormon], I do know it, and it is not from God. If you will check all the scripture in it, other than the ones Joseph Smith concocted for his gain, most read word for word from the Bible. In some instances he rearranged the sentence or changes one or two words, but the fact remains; it is mostly plagarized.
  To anyone who has really read The Book of Mormon, it is obvious that you have not read it, and that you know nothing of its contents.  The vast majority of it is different material from what is found in the Bible, for it is the record of different people, in a different place.

  When the most significant of group of these people separated from the people of the Bible, they took with them copies of what scripture existed at the time, and the Book of Mormon contains, clearly identified as such, sections quoted from these scriptures.  Of course these quoted sections will read the same as, or very similar to, the corresponding passages as found in the Bible.

  God would have, at times, have revealed the same or similar things to his prophets among these people as he revealed to the prophets in the Bible; and these revelations would likely read similarly to those in the Bible.

  And when Jesus visited these people, he taught them much of the same stuff that he taught in Isreal.

  It stands to reason that there will be some parallels between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.  It is part of the purpose of the Book of Mormon to provide another testament  another witness   to the gospel as found in The Holy Bible.

  Those parts of the Book of Mormon which directly parallel the Bible are, however, only a small minority of its contents.  Most of what is found therein is, as I said before, the records of a completely different people, in a completely different place, experiencing completely different events. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/28/2001 3:37 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (109 of 191)  
 
  98.109 in reply to 98.108  
 
Bob,

 

Why would God instruct Mormons to be like Jews??

 

The Jews are the Chosen line, all descendants from one man, Chosen to receive and Identify the Messiah. They are instructed to know God and to reveal God to the world through their prophets.

 

Are you saying that the Mormons are a chosen people to deliver another Messiah?? Even though Mormonism is not a family religion like Judaism but is a religion of strangers.

 

 Is Jesus not sufficient for you?? It makes no sense that the Mormons would be chosen to reveal God because everything in the books of Mormon are counter to what the Jews revealed God to be and counter to what Jesus instructed and what He did.

 

It is very clear in the Bible that there are only two groups of people Jews, and Gentiles and there is no such group of Mormons.

 

Please Post some clarification on your previous posting.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
 
From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/28/2001 7:27 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl    
 
    
 
<<<It is part of the purpose of the Book of Mormon to provide another testament  another witness  to the gospel as found in The Holy Bible.>>> 
So the Mormons believe that the Testament of Jesus Christ was not sufficient or wasn't correct? That's the only two reasons I can think of that would cause us to need another. Is this what you proclaim? That Jesus wasn't enough, you have to have Joseph Smith too? Well if Jesus Christ didn't fulfill His purpose to allow us salvation and to teach us what we need to know; then 3000 Joseph Smiths won't do the trick. It won't be Smith coming to collect his bride, but Jesus Christ. You look for Smith, I'll look for Christ; and we'll see who leaves first. Here is a summary of some facts about the Mormon church and its history that Mormon missionaries will never tell you from a site sponsored by Richard Packham. 

"We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself. 
The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long? 
Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later. 
In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians. Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. 
The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars." 
Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (apparently a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place. 
The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian. 
The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it. 
Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race. 
Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters. 
Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book. 
Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet NOTES. The most recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide. 
The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. NOTES Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the 150 years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it. 
Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are: 
- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father); 
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church); 
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven); 
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978); 
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities); 
All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church. 
Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations": 
- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up. 
- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version. 
- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box. 
Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred. 
Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God." 
Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history. 
YOUR LIFE AS A MORMON 
If you should decide to become a member of the LDS church, you should be aware of what your life in the church will be like. Although you will find yourself warmly accepted by a lively community of healthy, active and generally supportive people, many of whom are very happy in Mormonism and could not imagine their lives without it, there is another side: 
You will be continually reminded that to enter the highest degree of heaven (the "Celestial Kingdom"), you will have to go through the endowment ceremony in the temple and have your marriage to your Mormon spouse "sealed." (If your spouse is not Mormon, you cannot enter the highest degree of heaven.) To get permission to have these ceremonies performed in the temple, you must prove yourself to be a faithful and obedient member of the church and do everything commanded by the church authorities, from the Prophet down to the local level. You will have to undergo a personal "worthiness" interview with the local church authorities inquiring into your private life and your religious and social activities. 
You will be expected to donate at least ten percent of your income to the church as tithing. Other donations will be expected as the need arises. You will never see an accounting of how this money is spent, or how much the church receives, or anything at all about its financial condition; the church keeps its finances secret, even from its members. 
You will be expected to give up the use of alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea. 
You will be expected to fulfill any work assignment given to you. These assignments may be teaching positions, clerk positions, helping with various support tasks - any job that needs to be done. Each task you perform successfully will make you eligible for others, with more responsibility and more demands upon your time. The members who perform these jobs, even those involving sensitive pastoral counseling, receive no formal training whatsoever (there is no paid, trained clergy). You will be told that God has called you to your assignments. Many Mormons find most of their spare time taken up with church work, trying to fulfill the numerous assignments that have been given them. 
You will be expected to be unquestioningly obedient to church authorities in whatever they might tell you to do. "Follow the Brethren" is the slogan, and it means to follow without doubt or question. Discussion of whether a decree from above is correct is discouraged. You will be expected to have faith that the leaders cannot possibly lead you astray. Even if they should tell you something which contradicts what a previous prophet may have said, you will be told "A living prophet takes precedence over a dead prophet." 
You will be able to "vote" on those who have been called to positions of authority over you, but the voting will be by the show of hands in a public meeting. Only one candidate for each office will be voted on (the one "called by God"). The voting is therefore almost always unanimous in favor of the candidate. 
You will be urged not to read any material which is "not faith-promoting," that is, which may be critical or questioning of the church or its leaders, or which might place the church or its leaders in an unfavorable light. 
You will be advised not to associate with "apostates," that is, former Mormons. (You will be asked in your "worthiness" interview about this.) 
If you are unmarried, you will be encouraged to marry a good Mormon as soon as possible. When you do marry, in a wedding ceremony in the temple, your non-Mormon family members and friends will not be allowed to attend the ceremony, because only "worthy" Mormons are allowed to enter the temple. 
If you are homosexual, you will be pressured to abandon this "evil" aspect of your nature. If you do not, you will probably not be fully accepted by other church members. If you do not remain celibate, you may be excommunicated. 
If you are a male over 12 years of age and "worthy" (that is, if you are obedient, attend meetings, do not masturbate NOTES, etc.), you will be ordained to one of the levels of priesthood, and, if you continue to be faithful and obedient, you will gradually advance through the priesthood ranks. If you are female, you will receive the benefits of priesthood authority only indirectly, through your Mormon father or your Mormon husband. The role of the Mormon woman is to be a wife and mother and to obey and honor her priest husband (or father). 
If you prove yourself to be faithful, hard working and obedient, you will eventually be considered worthy to "receive your endowment" in a Mormon temple. You will not be told in advance exactly what to expect in this lengthy ceremony, except that the details of the ritual are secret (Mormons prefer to say they are just "sacred," but they treat them as though they are secret). As part of that ceremony you will be required to swear a number of oaths, the penalty for violation of which is no longer stated but until 1990 was death by various bloody methods, such as having your throat slit from ear to ear. You will be given the secret signs and passwords which are required to enter heaven. (Although most Mormons who have not received the endowment know very little about the ceremony, the entire liturgy is now available on the Internet to Mormon and non-Mormon alike.) After receiving the endowment you will be required to wear a special undergarment at all times. 
If you should ever decide that you made a mistake in joining the church and then leave it, you will probably find (judging from the experiences of others who have done so) that many of your Mormon friends will abandon and shun you. If you are unable to convince your family members to leave the church with you, you will find that the church has broken up your family and your relationship with them may never recover. 
Consider very carefully before you commit yourself, and remember that any doubts you may have now will likely only increase. 
Examine carefully both sides of the Mormon story. Listen to the stories of those who have been through an unhappy Mormon experience, not just those Mormons who may speak glowingly of life in the church. 
The Mormon missionaries are often charming and enthusiastic. They have an attractive story to tell. At first it sounds wonderful. But remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!" Be careful not to fall into the trap of believing something simply because you want it to be true. Mormons may tell you that those who criticize the church are lying, misquoting and distorting. If you examine the sources used by the critics, however, you will discover that most of their source material is from official or semi-official Mormon writings. You, too, should examine those sources. 
Is Mormonism a "cult"? Many experts on religious cults see in Mormonism the same fundamental characteristics as cults which have entrapped the unsuspecting, even though most people think of "cults" only as small, unknown groups. Use a "cult checklist" to evaluate Mormonism, or any group, before you commit yourself. 

For the references of historical documentation, go to http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters!  
From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/29/2001 12:32 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (111 of 191)  
 
  98.111 in reply to 98.109  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Are you saying that the Mormons are a chosen people to deliver another Messiah??
  I do not see how anything which I have written, nor anything found anywhere in the doctrines and teachings of the Mormon religion, can be reasonably construed this way.  There is, and can only ever be, one Messiah, one Savior, one only begotten son of God, and that is Jesus Christ; nothing I have written, and nothing in the doctrines of my church, suggests otherwise.



It is very clear in the Bible that there are only two groups of people Jews, and Gentiles and there is no such group of Mormons.
  Again, I just don't see where you get this.  Of course, there are only Jews and Gentiles  a Gentile being defined as anyone who is not a Jew.  Mormons are not Jews (with the possible exception of some Mormons who are of Jewish ancestry, and who might consider themselves, because of their ancestry, to be Jews rather than Gentiles; even if they do not believe in or practice the Jewish religion), so we would be Gentiles. 
  
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From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/29/2001 2:30 am  
To:  ALL    
 
    
 
PENTITENT wrote:
So the Mormons believe that the Testament of Jesus Christ was not sufficient or wasn't correct? That's the only two reasons I can think of that would cause us to need another. Is this what you proclaim? That Jesus wasn't enough, you have to have Joseph Smith too?
  Joseph Smith was a prophet of God  nothing more or less.  That there was a need for him as a prophet does not in any way diminish the importance of Jesus Christ or what Jesus has done for us, any more than any of the prophets of the Old Testament and the New Testament diminish Jesus.

  The remainder of your message consists of quoted sections from one or more propaganda pieces, containing assertions, some of which are entirely false, others of which are distorted to the degree that they are far removed from the actual truths on which they are based.  I do not have the time to refute each and every point made therein, but all have been refuted in various publications.  I will address a few of the points, in the hope that by doing so, you will see that the source of all of these points is of highly questionable credibility, at best.



In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church.
  This particular charge, I came up against fairly recently in another forum, and there's still a bookmark in the place where I found the truth.  The claim that Joseph Smith had joined the Methodists comes from the book The Godmakers, which cited two documents in support of this charge.  In both cases, parts of these documents were cited out of context, with obviously deceptive intent.  Both of these documents, when read in full, make it clear that Smith did not join the Methodist church.  Shortly before the First Vision, he attended a Methodist Probationary class, a class for people who are thinking of joining the Methodist church.  His name appeared on a class book as a result of his having attended this class.  Three days later, Joseph Smith requested that his name be removed from thsi record, and eventually, when he failed to seek membership in the Methodist church, his name was, indeed, removed.  Documentation of this is found on page 297 in the book The Truth about The Godmakers by Gilbert Scharffs, published in 1986 by Publisher's Press.



Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.
  Joseph Smith was arrested and tried a number of times, on a number of charges.  There's no record anywhere that indicates that he was ever convicted of any charge.  Jesus Christ himself was arrested, tried, convicted, and put to death for his crime; as were most of his Apostles.  Should we disregard them on this basis?  As for moneydigging, what do you think is meant by this?  What is moneydigging, and what law has there ever been against it?  The truth behind all the various crazy stories about Jospeh Smith as a treasure hunter and moneydigger is that he was, during a period of economic hard times, employed by an unsuccessful silver miner by the name of Josiah Stoal.  The work was hard, and unpleasant, and not terribly profitable, but it was honest work, and it was what Smith had to do at the time to support himself.



The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement.
  Yes, most of these witnesses eventually turned against Joseph Smith, and left the church, but not one of them ever recanted his testimony as printed in the Book of Mormon.  In fact, there was an episode some years later involving Oliver Cordery.  Having taken to the practice of law, Cowdery was involved in some matter of litigation, when his opponent brought up his testimony of the plates, with the intent of using this to attack Cowdery's credibility and integrity.  What would have made sense for Cowdery to do at this point?  Either way, his credibility was at risk.  In the presence of a judge and a jury, he could either deny his previous testimony, and admit that he had lied in that instance, or else he could reaffirm his previous testimony, and have this judge and jury see and hear him directly, standing by a story which they would certainly find to be beyond belief.  Cowdery had long parted with the church, and had no cause for loyalty to it.  I think that clearly, he could have retained more credibility by saying that he had lied in the past, than he could by standing by a statement which the judge and the jury would surely think to be a lie.  He chose to stand by his testimony of the plates.



Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandonedSome examples are:
- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);
  
  
  
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);
All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.
  None of these are, or ever were, teachings or doctrines of the church.  These are based on opinions which have been expressed by some of our early leaders, but such opinions do not automatically constitute doctrine.  There is a specific process by which doctrine is established, in order to separate and distinguish between true revelation from God, and the opinions of the men through whom God reveals his word.  None of these were ever submitted to, much less passed through, this process.

The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.

  Smith had several sets of scrolls, some of which were destroyed in a fire.  There is no evidence that the surviving scrolls are the ones from which Smith suppoesdly translated the book of Abraham.  In fact, the surviving scrolls bear various random notes in Smith's hand; this indicates that these particular scrolls were considered by Smith to be of such little value that he used them as scratch paper.  This would seem strange to most people.  Surely any authentic example of an ancient Egyptian scroll would be of great historical and financial value; but to Joseph Smith, the only scrolls that he would have regarded as valuable would be those that contained meaningful scripture.  All evidence suggests that the scrolls from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham were among those lost in the fire.



If you are homosexual, you will be pressured to abandon this "evil" aspect of your nature. If you do not, you will probably not be fully accepted by other church members. If you do not remain celibate, you may be excommunicated.
  Until recently, nearly all Christian sects, and most non-Christian religions as well, condemned homosexuality as evil.  Homosexuality is condemned repeatedly in the Bible as an abomination.  The male bovine manure of Political Correctness has dictated that we must accept homosexuality and other sexual perversions as being entirely normal and proper and acceptable.  Many religions have foolishly abandoned what they know to be truth, in order to conform to political correctness.  Mormonism has not.  I do not see how this is a basis on which to condemn Mormonism; rather, it is a basis on which to condemn those churches which have placed political correctness above God's word.


  I know there's a lot in your posting that I have not addressed.  What I have addressed, I have not addressed as thoroughly or as well as I would have liked to.  Alas, I have only a very finite amount of time that I can spend on such as this, and it is far easier for you to dig up and post large tracts of intentionally-deceptive propaganda than it is for me to go through each such piece of propaganda and address every point raised therein.


  If there's anything I would leave you with, at this point, it is this:  I am an actual, practicing member of the Mormon religion.  I have received its teachings and doctrines, I have participated in, and continue to participate in, its most sacred ordinances.  My experiences as a practicing Mormon are very much at odds with the ignorant depictions of the Mormon experience which have been posted here by you and by others, who have no firsthand knowledge or experience, as I have.  If you are really interested in what Mormonism teaches, and what it practices, and what the whole experience of being a Mormon is like; you would do much better to listen to someone like me, who has lived it, and who continues to live it, than to listen to those who have never lived it, and whose only agenda is to ignorantly tear something down.
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/29/2001 1:39 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (113 of 191)  
 
  98.113 in reply to 98.112  
 
Bob,

 

Joseph smith was Never a prophet of God. The only thing Joseph Smith does is disagree with God and His Bible.

 

You cannot speak for someone by denying everything that they say, teach, do and stand for. 

 

The New Testament book of Jude verse 3 states that the Faith was Delivered only Once to the Church (Saints), and that we are to contend for and support this one and only faith. Joseph Smith and Mormons are totally counter to what the Bible teaches and are unacceptable to Christianity.

 

Jude ver. 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the Common Salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and Exhort you that Ye Should Earnestly Contend for the Faith which was Once Delivered unto the Saints.

 

Yes, Bob you are a Mormon and as a Mormon you will receive for the Error of your ways, only in your case Bob it will be much worse for you because you are a defender and a promoter of lies. Where you are going it is going to be Very Hot and Very Unpleasant and your special Mormon underwear is not going to help you.

 

I hope you can stop playing your silly games with History and Facts long enough to embrace Jesus and to then actually find the Truth. And Joseph Smith is as far from the truth as any man that has ever lived.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 12/29/2001 4:46:59 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/29/2001 8:31 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (114 of 191)  
 
  98.114 in reply to 98.112  
 
<<<Joseph Smith was a prophet of God  nothing more or less. That there was a need for him as a prophet does not in any way diminish the importance of Jesus Christ or what Jesus has done for us,>>> 
Then why did he. He taught a different doctrine than Jesus. I would say that diminishes Jesus authority. And since the Bible also says beware of false prophets, who preach a different doctrine; that makes Joseph Smith unGodly automatically. 

<<<The remainder of your message consists of quoted sections from one or more propaganda pieces, containing assertions, some of which are entirely false, others of which are distorted to the degree that they are far removed from the actual truths on which they are based.>>> 

I quoted the site they came from which lists all the historical documented proof to back them up. He was a crook and he created the Mormons for gain and gain alone. 

It didn't say he joined the Methodists, but that he applied. this is true. He did apply. Jesus wasn't arrested as a conman shamming people out of their money, Smith was. 

<<<None of these are, or ever were, teachings or doctrines of the church.>>> 

Yes they were. It is recorded historical fact. maybe you should read the past history yourself. This is as far as I got and it truncated. I don't read the second page of truncated messages, so please try to keep them in one post.

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/30/2001 12:25 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (115 of 191)  
 
  98.115 in reply to 98.113  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
The New Testament book of Jude verse 3 states that the Faith was Delivered only Once to the Church
  That's not what this passage says.  You are forcing a meaning on to this passage which is not supported by the context in which it appears.  Isn't there some warning in the Bible somewhere against those who would twist and pervert scripture for their own purposes?



Yes, Bob you are a Mormon and as a Mormon you will receive for the Error of your ways, only in your case Bob it will be much worse for you because you are a defender and a promoter of lies. Where you are going it is going to be Very Hot and Very Unpleasant
  Fortunately, it will be Jesus Christ, and not David Anson Brown, who will stand in judgement of me; and Jesus will not judge me in the same way that you arrogantly presume to do. 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/30/2001 12:47 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (116 of 191)  
 
  98.116 in reply to 98.114  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
This is as far as I got and it truncated. I don't read the second page of truncated messages, so please try to keep them in one post.
  Your post, to which I was replying, was longer than a page, and in order to reply, I had to click the provided link to see what was beyond the point where your message was truncated.  It appears that you are unwilling to operate by the same rules which you seek to impose upon me.



He was a crook and he created the Mormons for gain and gain alone.
  If he was a con-artist, and if his whole purpose in starting the Mormon church was to seek personal gain, then one must say that he was horribly unsuccessful.  All it ever got him was a life of poverty, in which he endured continual harassment.  He was repeatedly arrested and jailed without charge or trial, and ultimately, he was murdered by a mob.  If he was a con-artist, he was the least successful one that ever lived.



It didn't say he joined the Methodists, but that he applied. this is true. He did apply.
  No, he did not.  He got as far as taking a class that was offered by the Methodists, but he never applied for membership.



None of these are, or ever were, teachings or doctrines of the church.
Yes they were. It is recorded historical fact. maybe you should read the past history yourself.
  No, they were not.  The simple fact is that there is a specific procedure by which doctrines are established in the church, and none of the these teachings were ever submitted to this procedure.  At most, they were only ever the mistaken opinions and speculations of individual men. 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/30/2001 1:34 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (117 of 191)  
 
  98.117 in reply to 98.116  
 
If it was truncated you have my humble apology, I don't like clicking over and don't expect you to either. If there are anymore, I will adjust them accordingly. 
I guess we could sit here and argue all day, but the fact is you think the documented things I read propaganda and will never believe them. As far as doctrine, are you going to tell me that Polygamy was never part of the doctrine, when the earliest Mormons, right up to the time it became illegal, practiced it? There is also a long history of only white Mormons. It wasn't until after the Civil Rights Act that Blacks were allowed to become Mormons. If you look at some of your own sites early Church photographs, you won't see any blacks. 
Check it out and then let me know if you still deny this part of the early doctrine!? I'll be glad to present the documentation or at least the site. Of course that will only work if you actually go to the site. Since Mormons preach it blasphemy to read anything that puts down or disclaims their religion, odds are you will not.

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/31/2001 10:21 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (118 of 191)  
 
  98.118 in reply to 98.117  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
If it was truncated you have my humble apology, I don't like clicking over and don't expect you to either. If there are anymore, I will adjust them accordingly.
  As far as I know, Delphi does not provide any easy way to know whether a message will truncate until after have posted it.  It seems to me that the effort in trying to monitor how long your message is getting to avoid truncation, or of going back to edit a message that truncated in order to split it into two messages, is far more of a burden than dealing with truncated messages.  I think it's foolish to worry about truncated messages in teh manner that you seem inclined to do.  It's only a single link to see the whole thing.



As far as doctrine, are you going to tell me that Polygamy was never part of the doctrine, when the earliest Mormons, right up to the time it became illegal, practiced it?
  At times, God has allowed, and even commanded polygamy, and at other times, he has forbidden it.  This is seen in the Bible, as well as in modern revelation.  I'm not aware that God has ever made clear his reasons for this.  Around the time the church was restored, God allowed polygamy, and even commanded certain individuals to practice it.  You've represented, as one of our doctrines, Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);.  This has never been a a doctrine of ours.  Yes, we believe that one must be married and sealed to at least one spouse, to be eligible to the highest level of heaven, but there's never been a doctrine that said more than one spouse was required.  As a matter of common sense, however, it would stand to reason that if a particular man had been commanded by God to take more than one wife, and he did not, then his direct disobedience to God would likely keep him from achieving the highest level of heaven.



There is also a long history of only white Mormons. It wasn't until after the Civil Rights Act that Blacks were allowed to become Mormons. If you look at some of your own sites early Church photographs, you won't see any blacks.
  Earlier, you represented as our doctrine, the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed;.  It is true that shortly after the church was restored, it was revealed that those of the Negroid were not eligible to hold the Priesthood.  This restriction was lifted in 1978.  God never saw fit to reveal his reasons for this, and it has given rise to a great deal of foolish speculation.  It was never our doctrine that blacks were descended from Cain, nor that they were in some way cursed.  Negroes have always been welcome in the church, even when they were not allowed the full benefits thereof.  I've been personally acquainted with at least one black man who was a member of the church since well before the blessings of the Priesthood were fully extended to him in 1978.



Since Mormons preach it blasphemy to read anything that puts down or disclaims their religion
  Mormons preach no such thing. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/31/2001 2:25 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (119 of 191)  
 
  98.119 in reply to 98.118  
 
Bob,

 

Where do you get that God commanded man to take more than one wife and in doing so will receive a higher level of heaven from those who do not.

 

Please explain this higher level of Heaven

 

Also how can you Mormons claim that Jesus will Judge you at the Judgment yet you claim that Jesus is Not the Full Payment for Sins. What is Jesus susposed to judge YOUR Merits?

 

And then is it Jesus that assigns Mormons to this Higher Heaven. Very Wierd!!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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   From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/31/2001 4:00 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (120 of 191)  
 
  98.120 in reply to 98.118  
 
<<<At times, God has allowed, and even commanded polygamy,>>> 
This statement, your statement, makes Jesus and the Apostles liars. 
We are to cleave to one...and any other is Adultery! How can this be a true doctrine of God, when it contradicts itself? 

<<<I've been personally acquainted with at least one black man who was a member of the church since well before the blessings of the Priesthood were fully extended to him in 1978.>>> 

I bet it wasn't before 1964! That was when the Civil Rights Act was signed into law; and denominations could no longer discriminate legally! 

<<<Since Mormons preach it blasphemy to read anything that puts down or disclaims their religion>>> 

Go to any LDS church site and read their beliefs. It is against Mormon policy to read or support reading anything that speaks against Mormon beliefs. Again, I'll go find a couple sites right now, and come back and post them for you. 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   12/31/2001 6:26 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (121 of 191)  
 
  98.121 in reply to 98.120  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
We are to cleave to one...and any other is Adultery!
  Would you say, then, that Abraham and Jacob and David and Solemon were all adulterers?



I've been personally acquainted with at least one black man who was a member of the church since well before the blessings of the Priesthood were fully extended to him in 1978.
I bet it wasn't before 1964! That was when the Civil Rights Act was signed into law; and denominations could no longer discriminate legally!
  The 1964 act doesn't apply to churches.  Any church can extend or withhold its membership to whomever it will.  There was no change in the status of Negros with respect to the Mormon church until 1978  14 years after the Civil Rights Act.  The change in 1978 occurred, not because of any legal requirements, but because God revealed that the time had come to extend the Priesthood to all worthy men.  Government did not force this change, nor could it have.  You see, there's this silly little thing called The First Amendment, which says that Big Brother has to keep his nose out of our churches.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



Since Mormons preach it blasphemy to read anything that puts down or disclaims their religion
Mormons preach no such thing.
Go to any LDS church site and read their beliefs. It is against Mormon policy to read or support reading anything that speaks against Mormon beliefs. Again, I'll go find a couple sites right now, and come back and post them for you.
  I'd tell you where the official LDS web site is, and challenge you to find where it says anywhere anything like this, but David would censor any URL leading to that site, so there's no point.  Perhaps if I tell in in this manner, David will allow it to stand:  After the obligatory http://, the next three characters are all double-U's, followed by a dot, then the letter L, the letter D and the letter S, another dot, and then org.  If you read this and figure it out before David censors it, that's the official web site of the Mormon church.  You won't find anything on it anywhere to support yoru claim that Mormons preach it blasphemy to read anything that puts down or disclaims their religion 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/1/2002 8:30 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (122 of 191)  
 
  98.122 in reply to 98.121  
 
<<<Would you say, then, that Abraham and Jacob and David and Solemon were all adulterers?>>> 
Yes! David even asked forgiveness for his adultery. The following is from your own www.lds.org 

"Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony and to be reared by a father and mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. In 1998, President Gordon B. Hinckley made the following statement about the Churchs position on plural marriage: 

This Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church . . . If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church. 

At various times, the Lord has commanded His people to practice plural marriage. For example, He gave this command to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon in the Mormon, "Doctrine and Covenants 132:1" In this dispensation, the Lord commanded some of the early Saints to practice plural marriage. The Prophet Joseph Smith and those closest to him, including Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, were challenged by this command, but they obeyed it. Church leaders regulated the practice. Those entering into it had to be authorized to do so, and the marriages had to be performed through the sealing power of the priesthood. In 1890, President Wilford Woodruff received a revelation that the leaders of the Church should cease teaching the practice of plural marriage." 

Now what is really amazing here is there are no verses in the Old Testament or New, where God commands or condones plural marriage! 
If God doesn't do it in either of these, then how did it ever get in the first Mormon By-laws? 

<<<The 1964 act doesn't apply to churches.>>> 

Federal forbids rejection because of color, no matter what institution, churches and temples included! 

<<<I'd tell you where the official LDS web site is, and challenge you to find where it says anywhere anything like this, but David would censor any URL leading to that site,>>> 

Then I'll do it for you, I was there! www.lds.org! And believe it or not, it specifys the the families are to use only LDS supported materials for teaching! The following from that very sight: 

"Inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents. The Lord has given parents a very important calling, and He knows they can fulfill it well.The four books of scripture used in the Church are the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books teach us about the will of God for our lives. They teach us about the life and mission of Jesus Christ and the laws of the gospel. They give us examples of people who had faith and kept the commandments of God. Families should study the scriptures together every day so they can learn and follow the teachings of the Lord." 

Members are told what to teach, and to teach only these materials. They are told how and what to pray for! 

The following is even an outline for family home evening: 

Opening song (by the family) 
Opening prayer (by a family member) 
Poem or scripture reading (by a family member) 
Lesson (by a parent or an older child) 
Activity (led by a family member and played by all of the family) 
Closing prayer (by a family member) 
Refreshments 

And yet you expect us to believe that a religion that controls all aspects of their members lives are not going to tell them to refrain from what they deem unscriptural! I'm fixing to read the "Doctrines and Covenants", so I will be back with more. If not for you, I wouldn't be finding out just how unscriptural they really are! I'm sure this will help others, maybe even pull some Mormons back to Jesus true teachings! 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   1/2/2002 1:09 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (123 of 191)  
 
  98.123 in reply to 98.122  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
[Quoting me]
Would you say, then, that Abraham and Jacob and David and Solemon were all adulterers?
Yes! David even asked forgiveness for his adultery.
  The Lord had given David his many wives, so surely there was no sin in having them.  David's sin was in coveting Bathsheba, who was another man's wife, to the point that he aranged for the death of Uriah the Hittite, who was Bathsheba's husband, so that he [David] could have Bathsheba for his own.  See 2 Samuel 110:
AND the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor mans lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
And Davids anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
And I gave thee thy masters house, and thy masters wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
  Solomon's sin, of course, was also not in having many wives.  It was in taking wives who worshipped idolatrous gods, and in letting these wives influence him toward the vile practices of idolatry.

  Let's leave them out, for the moment, and focus on Abraham and Jacob.  Both of these men had more than one wife.  Were they adulterers?

  Consider, also, the practice of Levirate marriage, as commanded in Deuteronomy 25:510.  Rather than quote the whole thing, I'll summarize.  If a man died, without having produced an heir, it was his brother's duty to take the deceased man's widow as his own wife, and to designate the first child born of that union as the heir to the dead brother.  Any man who was old enough to take his brother's wife in this manner, most likely already had a wife of his own.  Nevertheless, he was commanded by this passage of scripture to take his deceased brother's wife.  Did you get that?  In this situation, a man was commanded by God, in effect, to have more than one wife.

  The point, I think, is this:  It is absolutely clear, in the Old Testament, that at the very least, the practice of one man having more than one wife was, at some times, allowed, and possibly even encouraged or commanded.  Your general condemnation of the practice of plural marriage as adulterous is not only unbiblical  it is anti-biblical.  As a matter of fact, I bet you cannot find any passage anywhere in the Bible which prohibits or condems plural marriage.

  The Mormon position on plural marriage is this:  At some times, God has allowed, and even commanded the practice.  At other times, he has forbidden it.  Currently, it is forbidden.  I'm not aware that God has ever revealed his reasoning on this matter.




The 1964 act doesn't apply to churches.
Federal [law?] forbids rejection because of color, no matter what institution, churches and temples included!
  This simply is not true, has never been true, and will never be true.  It would appear that you understand the Constitution about as well as you understand the Bible, which is to say, not very well at all.  The federal government has absolutely no authority whatsoever to tell any church to whom it must extend the benefits of its membership.  Neither does any state or local government.  To claim such authority would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment.



And believe it or not, it [the LDS web site] specifys (sic) the (sic) the families are to use only LDS supported materials for teaching!
  And this is entirely proper.  There have been problems with non-doctrinal teachings being taught and represented as doctrine, as a result of teaching from non-approved sources.  Church doctrine needs to be taught only out of approved materials, in order to avoid having false-doctrine taught as doctrine.  There is a big difference between this, and your earlier claim that Mormons preach it blasphemy to read anything that puts down or disclaims their religion.  The church does not presume to tell us what we may or may not read, nor does it control all aspects of their members lives.  It does ask that any teaching of doctrinal matters be taken out of approved sources, in order to insure that what is taught as doctrine really is doctrine.  I see nothing improper about that.  It would, in my view, be a serious deficiency for a church to not exercise such control over claimed sources of that church's doctrine. 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   1/2/2002 11:48 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (124 of 191)  
 
  98.124 in reply to 98.123  
 
  Earlier, I wrote, The [Mormon] church does not presume to tell us what we may or may not read.  You seem to think otherwise, and you criticize us on this basis.  For an example of a case in which someone purporting, on the basis of some imaginary religious authority, to tell us what we may or may not read, please see this thread, and in particular, this message. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 1/2/2002 2:57:34 PM ET by OOYC_BBLAKBL 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/2/2002 6:14 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (125 of 191)  
 
  98.125 in reply to 98.123  
 
<<<Consider, also, the practice of Levirate marriage, as commanded in Deuteronomy 25:510.>>> 
This doesn't even apply, as the wives were not their brothers wives before them. None of them were married to other wives by this Levitical Law! If they had more than one wife, they were adulterers! If this wasn't so, Jesus wouldn't have said it! You might also take into account that Jesus said that Moses made laws that weren't commanded by God too! Such as the law of divorce! 

<<<Your general condemnation of the practice of plural marriage as adulterous>>> 

Is the same condemnation the Old and New Testament put on it! 

Exodus 20:14  Thou shalt not commit adultery.Deuteronomy 

5:18  Neither shalt thou commit adultery. 

Proverbs 6:32  But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul. 

I figure you know the New Testament condemns it, so I just posted some Old Testament scripture! There is more if you need see it! 

<<<To claim such authority would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment.>>> 

It wouldn't be the first time! Beside that the Constitution specifically reads they won't abridge your freedom of religion. Now if your doctrine prohibits blacks, which you say it doesn't anymore, then you legally have the right to ban them. But in doing so you commit a crime against the federal government that says no discrimination. They won't put anyone in jail for this, but they can suspend your right to a tax-free church because you are going against the law. The tax-exemption is not a constitutional right. It would also keep the church from applying for any government help programs, etc., etc.! I was in the Service and worked for the Federal Government after I got out! You'd be surprised just what they can get away with! 

<<<And this is entirely proper.>>> 

Just out of curiosity, you told me before that they didn't regulate what you read and study! Now you say they do and they should! But did you ever stop to think these wrong study materials they don't want you to have, could be your ticket out of Mormonism in Salvation through the true Word of God! Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's rules and by-laws won't get you to Heaven [And just for the record, I'd say the same to anyone wrapped up in any organized religion], only the true Word of God can!

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/2/2002 6:27 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl   (126 of 191)  
 
  98.126 in reply to 98.124  
 
And your point is? What I choose not to read, I am directed by God not to read; not a church! Their is a difference between reading what is an abomination to God, and what might be the truth that your missing by sticking church-accepted writings! I study all religions, but I do and live the Word of God! This is part of a Southern Gospel song by the Imperials: 
You can call yourself a Baptist and not be "Born Again" 
A Presbyterian, or a Methodist, and still die in your sin 
You can even be a Charismatic, shout and dance, and jump a pew 
But if you hate your brother, you won't be one of the chosen few 

For it won't be a Baptist, that's sitting on the throne 
A Presbyterian or a Methodist that's calling us home 
And it won't be a Charismatic that plays that trumpet tune 
Lets all just live for Jesus, because He's coming back real soon 

No it won't be old Buddha that's sitting on the throne 
And it won't be old Mohammed that's calling us home 
And it won't be Hare Krishna that plays that trumpet tune 
And we're going to see the sun, not Reverend Moon! 

The point is that you should quit dwelling on the Mormon requirements and just worry about the Jesus requirements. Believe what His Word says, not what the church tells you to believe. You won't end up in the "lake of fire" doing God's Word; but you very well might doing Joseph Smiths!

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/2/2002 8:22 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (127 of 191)  
 
  98.127 in reply to 98.126  
 
Hi,

 

There is no need to soft peddle the Truth here.

 

In Jesus there is Salvation.

 

In Joseph Smith and as in all others there is the Lake of Fire and only the lake of Fire!

 

The Choice belongs to each one of us, the choice to follow God or to follow man.

 

Choose Wisely!!

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  ooyc_bBlakBl   1/2/2002 9:59 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (128 of 191)  
 
  98.128 in reply to 98.125  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
If they had more than one wife, they were adulterers!
  Abraham had at least one wife (Sarah) and at least one concubine (Hagar).  He had a son by each of them.  See Genesis 16:14.  Was Abraham an adulterer? Yes or no?

  Jacob had at least two wives, Leah and Rachel. (See Genesis 29)  He had at least two concubines, Bilhah and Zilpah. (See Genesis 30)  He had children by all four of these women.  Was Jacob an adulterer?  Yes or no?



Now if your doctrine prohibits blacks, which you say it doesn't anymore, then you legally have the right to ban them. But in doing so you commit a crime against the federal government that says no discrimination. They won't put anyone in jail for this, but they can suspend your right to a tax-free church because you are going against the law.
  No, they cannot.  Big brother doesn't get to dictate to churches who they must accept as members.  Never has, and never will.  They recently tried to dictate such things to the Boy Scouts, and this was struck down.  I challenge you to find documentation on so much as one case in which any church in this country was forced, as a result of government action, to accept anyone as a member whom that chuch had otherwise expressed an intent to reject.  You won't find it.  Government simply doesn't have that authority in this country.  If they ever did, that would be the end of religious freedom.



Just out of curiosity, you told me before that they didn't regulate what you read and study! Now you say they do and they should!
  That's not what I said.  They do not regulate what I read or study.  But if I am to teach doctrine, they ask that I do so only out of approved materials.  To allow doctrine to be taught from unapproved materials would be foolish, for it would open the door for any idiot to teach any crazy idea, and call it doctrine.



And your point [in pointing to the Harry Potter thread] is? What I choose not to read, I am directed by God not to read; not a church!
  You seem to be aligned with those who are trying to tell us that we should not read the Harry Potter books.  Surely, this makes you guilty of the very offense of which you are falsely accusing my church.  Matthew 7:35:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye.
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/3/2002 8:02 pm  
To:  ooyc_bBlakBl unread  (129 of 191)  
 
  98.129 in reply to 98.128  
 
<<<Abraham had at least one wife (Sarah) and at least one concubine (Hagar). He had a son by each of them. See Genesis 16:14. Was Abraham an adulterer? Yes or no? 
Jacob had at least two wives, Leah and Rachel. (See Genesis 29) He had at least two concubines, Bilhah and Zilpah. (See Genesis 30) He had children by all four of these women. Was Jacob an adulterer? Yes or no?>>> 

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes! As I said before, Yes, they were adulterers! God didn't give them permission to do it, they made this decision on their own. And if you'll read on as far as Abraham is concerned, God chastised Him for it! 

<<<No, they cannot. Big brother doesn't get to dictate to churches who they must accept as members.>>> 

This is called delusion, my brother! I've seen and read about it happening. How about in the case of your church! They changed their plural-marriage doctrine, because the government made it illegal! Don't tell me they can't. They stormed the Branch Davidians because they were illegally stockpiling weapons and having sex with minors, yet they were an accredited Church denomination. There are many situations where churches were discredited or launched upon by government investigation! How about the Church of Satan in San Francisco! The High Priest is Anton Szandor Lavey! If what you believe was true, they could sacrifice humans in their black masses! Trust me! Even the church cannot breach the law without the government getting involved! 

<<<would open the door for any idiot to teach any crazy idea, and call it doctrine.>>> 

Isn't this what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did with God's Word, The Bible by writing the book of Mormon? 

<<<You seem to be aligned with those who are trying to tell us that we should not read the Harry Potter books. Surely, this makes you guilty of the very offense of which you are falsely accusing my church.>> 

I am aligned with God's Word which plainly states we are not to indulge in things that are an abomination to us. And this verse doesn't apply because it says you can't preach against what you are guilty of! I am not guilty of adding perverse and unfounded scripture to God's Word and believing it, so I can righteously preach against it! Do you read books of witchcraft? I don't, so again, I can righteously preach against them! 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Bklclb_ooyaB   1/4/2002 9:58 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (130 of 191)  
 
  98.130 in reply to 98.129  
 
PENTITENT wrote:
[Quoting me]
Abraham had at least one wife (Sarah) and at least one concubine (Hagar). He had a son by each of them. See Genesis 16:14. Was Abraham an adulterer? Yes or no?

Jacob had at least two wives, Leah and Rachel. (See Genesis 29) He had at least two concubines, Bilhah and Zilpah. (See Genesis 30) He had children by all four of these women. Was Jacob an adulterer? Yes or no?
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes! As I said before, Yes, they were adulterers! God didn't give them permission to do it, they made this decision on their own. And if you'll read on as far as Abraham is concerned, God chastised Him for it!
  Where, in the Bible, does it indicate that God expressed any disapproval of Abraham having taken a second wife?  And where is there any statement found in the Bible against Jacob having had four wives?  And what of 2 Samuel 12:8, where the Lord, through teh prophet Nathan, tells David that he [the Lord] had given David so many wives?  Surely that constitutes explicit permission to have these wives.

  The simple truth is that the Bible does not condemn polygamy.  Only by deliberately twisting and perverting it do you claim that it does.



Big brother doesn't get to dictate to churches who they must accept as members.
This is called delusion, my brother! I've seen and read about it happening.
  Can you name one case, just one, where any church was forced in this country, by government action, to accept into membership a person who it had expressed an intent to exclude?  Of course you cannot.  It has not happened.  It will not happen.  In this country, the government simply doesn't have this authority.



You seem to be aligned with those who are trying to tell us that we should not read the Harry Potter books. Surely, this makes you guilty of the very offense of which you are falsely accusing my church.
I am aligned with God's Word which plainly states we are not to indulge in things that are an abomination to us.
  You wrote, earlier, that Mormons preach it blasphemy to read anything that puts down or disclaims their religion.  This accusation is absolutely false, of course.  The church does not presume to tell us what we may or may not read.  I am not committing blasphemy, nor any other similar offense, nor would my church claim that I was, by reading your postings here, for example.  But supposing, for the sake of argument, that your accusation was true, what would be your basis for using this accusation to condemn my church?  If it is wrong for a church to tell its members that they should not read material which expresses views contrary to those of the church, then is it not every bit as wrong for you to tell people they should not read such literature as Harry Potter or the works of C.S. Lewis; on the basis that they express contrary views to those which you hold?  As I said before, it certainly seems to me that you are openly, blatantly committing the very same offense of which you are falsely accusing my church.  You are attributing to my church a position which it does not hold.  At the same time, you have taken this position yourself; without having provided any credible explanation of why it is OK for you to take this position, but not OK for my church to take the same position.  I think you need to read Matthew 7:35 again. 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/5/2002 12:25 am  
To:  Bklclb_ooyaB unread  (131 of 191)  
 
  98.131 in reply to 98.130  
 
Where did it say God approved of it? He was the King, and had favor in Gods eyes; so didn't chastise him for it! He still didn't acknowledge He condoned it! And now it really isn't acceptable because we as Christians cannot break the law of man, which forbids it! Again just because God allowed it, doesn't mean He agreed with it! 
You know you've got a habit of turning everything around, don't you! I didn't tell anyone to quit reading "Harry Potter", I just told them God commands it! and He does! As far as your church, so what you're saying is they wouldn't mind a group of you getting together and studying Baptist or Presbyterian ordinances? I mean just because I'm not a Baptist doesn't mean I can't study their doctrine or ordinances! 
But according to the LDS site, you are restricted to studying approved material. Would Baptist doctrine fall in that category? It also teaches the Word of God! 
<<<The simple truth is that the Bible does not condemn polygamy.>>> 

The Bible does condemn polygamy! 

Mark 10:11  And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 

Luke 16:18  Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. 

1 Corinthians 7:2  Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 

1 Corinthians 7:27  Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. 

Ephesians 5:31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 

1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 

1 Timothy 3:12  Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 

1 Corinthians 7:4  The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 

I can quote you more if need be! All through the New Testament with the advent of Jesus, a man is to cleave to one wife! She has power over his body! Do you think she's going to share him with anyone else? 
It very well may be that God said nothing about it then, because they were trying to build the nation! Or maybe the women outnumbered the men and it was the only way the women could fill the Godly duty of procreation! Nevertheless, it is not acceptable now, because neither of those situations exist anymore! 

<<<Harry Potter or the works of C.S. Lewis; on the basis that they express contrary views to those which you hold?>>> 

And just for the record, these are the same views God holds. Do you believe it's alright to delve into witchcraft as a Christian? Witchcraft and sorcerers are preached against in the Old and New Testament! Do you not care what God says about it? If you do, then you shouldn't be supporting these books either! Isn't it ignorant to go about doing the Fathers Work, while reading the teachings of Satan!

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Fredd666   1/5/2002 9:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (132 of 191)  
 
  98.132 in reply to 98.82  
 
What you state are your beliefs, they may have nothing to do with reality! 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 5:59 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (133 of 191)  
 
  98.133 in reply to 98.14  
 
It never ceases to amaze me how you "Christians" can spew so much hatred. When Christ comes again, a lot of you are going to be left stranded and confused beause you thought you were right in your predjudice. Follow God's commandments, lead a pure life, and hatred will have no place in your heart. 
May God someday be able to reach you and those like you who think that by simply reading the scriptures that you have an upper hand in the game of religion and life. You have a lot to learn.
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 1:25 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (134 of 191)  
 
  98.134 in reply to 98.1  
 
You have issues....people like you make me wonder, do I really wanna ally myself with Christianity? 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 1:27 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (135 of 191)  
 
  98.135 in reply to 98.10  
 
Dude, 
Mormons don't worship the dead. They do work for them, so that those who have not heard the gospel may see our Father in Heaven. Please take a look at 1 Corinthians: 20-29.
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 1:37 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock) unread  (136 of 191)  
 
  98.136 in reply to 98.17  
 
>>Are there any true Satanists participating in this forum? if there are, I say that you shall know them by this sign: That they have cited Satan's own lies, as published in the Satanic Bible, in support of their slander against the true Christians.<< 
Ha ha!!! I like that... 

Yeah, the little bugger is quite loony, isn't he? 

By the way, I'm Sam. Nice to meet you.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/8/2002 1:47 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (137 of 191)  
 
  98.137 in reply to 98.136  
 
Hi Sam,

 

I take it that since you immediately resorted to a personal attack on me that you have nothing of substance to support your own Mormon beliefs.

 

BTW I do agree with you that the Satanists have the Satanic Signatures. Just look at that know Satan Worshiper Bob Blaylocks Signature it is a skull, the very symbol of Satanic Death, and Bob is your Mormon spokesman so he is only being honest in revealing that as a Mormon he works for Satan.

 

All The Best,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 1:57 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (138 of 191)  
 
  98.138 in reply to 98.137  
 
Dude, whatever. I joined the church not because of the "satanic beliefs" as you call them. I study teh doctrine, and I study that which is both for and against it. I know where the fallacies are in the mormon church. I almost left. But you know what? I'd rather belong to a cover up church full of nice loving people who really know what it means to be a disciple of Christ than to belong to a church that can do nothing but spew hatred. It's as simple as that. Now I'm off to my institute class. World religions. Wonderful thing. Did yo uknow that Ishmael, Hagar's son is the father of the Arab nation? That Allah is the same "Abba" that Jesus calls father? But I'm sure you won't even consider that. Everyone who disagrees with you is of the Devil, right? Well, so be it. 
And you do not wish me all the best, so stop that hyocrasy right there!
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:02 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (139 of 191)  
 
  98.139 in reply to 98.57  
 
>>And I join you in Every Prayer Hoping and Praying that Many Mormons Including Bob will come to the Marvelous Truth of Eternal Life in Jesus and Jesus alone and reject the Abomination of Mormonism.<< 
Why do you people spend all your time trying to bash other people's faiths? FYI, I love Christ!!! I can shout it from the rooftops. I love our Father in Heaven, and every trial and blessing he sends my way. I tell you, people like you are going to be really surprised when Christ returns. You ain't goin' where you think you are, I can tell you that. Your hatred has put up a huge roadblock in your way. You are just like every other "Christian" who can do nothing but hate that which they really don't understand. It's both sick and sad. 

Get Christ into your life...FOR REAL THIS TIME!!!!!
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/8/2002 2:04 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (140 of 191)  
 
  98.140 in reply to 98.138  
 
You are so loving that must be some loving church that you belong to.

 

All the Best,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:05 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (141 of 191)  
 
  98.141 in reply to 98.61  
 
So all Christians go to Heaven, eh? Sure....it's more than proclaiming themself Christian. You have to walk the walk, too. And right now you are not doing it. 
What about the people who have never heard the gospel? They burn in hell? 

Answer me that.
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:08 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (142 of 191)  
 
  98.142 in reply to 98.67  
 
Dude, 
You seriously need to pick up the actual scriptures that you are bashing and read them to see if what you believe is true or not before you go and start all these threads. Go and get a Book of Mormon and read it. I guarantee you that you will have more fuel for your fire. Don't use the concocted stories of more idiots, please. Do us the honor of using that which WE KNOW against us, not someone else's lies. 

If need be, I'll send you one. 
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (143 of 191)  
 
  98.143 in reply to 98.67  
 
"Works cause our FAITH to grow, not our salvation!" 
I totally agree. 

That's why we do works in the first place. 

You really need to get your sh*t straight.
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:11 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (144 of 191)  
 
  98.144 in reply to 98.73  
 
Do you have a life, or is it your life's pleasure to spend all this time bashing a faith? Do you really give a rat's behind about us or our souls? Or do you just get off on posting this mess? 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:14 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (145 of 191)  
 
  98.145 in reply to 98.140  
 
You mock me and call me loving. Yet you spend so much time trying to bash people and what they believe. That sure ain't love, honey. What are you like in real life, I wonder? 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:15 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (146 of 191)  
 
  98.146 in reply to 98.140  
 
Oh, and by the way. You have not in any post that I have read of yours come up with any valid reason why I should leave the church. Keep working. 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/8/2002 2:16 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (147 of 191)  
 
  98.147 in reply to 98.140  
 
This is my stance on the church...and people who claim to be Christians. http://forums.delphiforums.com/itfigures/messages?msg=135.375 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/8/2002 8:47 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (148 of 191)  
 
  98.148 in reply to 98.147  
 
With the cursing and the venom you're spewing, we might actually mistake you as non-Christian, as you have, some here! As far as reading the "Book of Mormon", I did! It is not of God, although a majority of it is plagarized from God's Word. Then there's "the Pearl of Great Price" with the "Book of Moses", "Book of Abraham", etc. also mostly plagarized from God's Word! Your articles of Faith, which have some very interesting statements, such as the one claiming all mankind will be saved; which blatantly disagrees with the true Word of God! Or the one that says others must lay hands on you for you to obtain the Holy Spirit {Unscriptural]. They believe that in the 
"Paradise" we go to, we will live as we did here [Also unscriptural]! 
We marry here, there will be none there. We will have bodies like those of the angels, celestial bodies. Here we have terrestrial bodies! The most important thing you should look at is the fact that we are told if anyone preaches anything other than what Jesus and the Apostles preached, it is not of God! That should be proof enough, if you truly believe in God's Word! There is more than enough evidence that Mormonism is not the Godly religion it touts! As a matter of fact, All organized religions preach different things that are not of God. It's just that Mormonism seekms to do it to a higher degree!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/9/2002 6:15 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (149 of 191)  
 
  98.149 in reply to 98.148  
 
Look, I may not agree with all that mormonism teaches. I thought I said that before. But maybe some people here don't speak english. I stay because of the fellowship. Because of the fact that they respect other people's beliefs, unlike some people here. It's nice to have a family of people around you leading Christlike lives who truly love and care for you than a bunch of people who pretend to be your friend only after you join the church. There are Jews, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, and Muslims in my family. You think I've seen enough of diffrent religions to know that I want to stay where I am? I've had enough of hypocrites who really are not reading thier scriptures. I never said that I believe the BOM, POGP, etc to be true. I do not. But they say Christ was a kick ass person. That he rules. If the crayon scribble that a child draws on the wall says that, I will read it. If I read something in BOM, I cross reference to the Bible and find a scripture that says the same thing, and I mark it so that I can come back to it. 
Don't put us all in the same basket. I know that there are some really good Christians out there who do NOT act like you people. They are just hard to find. And about the salvation part. So some native out in the Amazon who has never heard of Christ is going to hell because he was born into a remote place where no one has thought to spread the gospel to him yet? Is this the type of crap that you people are spreading? If so, I can clearly remember why I hated Christians in the first place. God is not that merciless. That is where you all go wrong. You think that just because you happened to be either born into or converted to Christianity, that you are special, and that no matter what you do or say (it's obvious by the horrid posts on this board), you're going to heaven because of Christ's Atonement, forgetting that you have to repent and put that gift to work if you want to go anywhere. 

Like I've said to the other fools on this board....ya'll are going to be very shocked when the rapture occurs and leaves you here. You are too self assured. Leading a Christlike life is a daily lesson, to be learned from up until the day you die. You all seem to think that if you have enough scriptures memorized, and if you can scare enough people into joining your church, that all is well. Get real. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 1/9/2002 9:25:08 AM ET by CMEFLY2001 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/9/2002 6:18 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (150 of 191)  
 
  98.150 in reply to 98.148  
 
Oh, and where did you get the BOM from? Where did you read it, and with what attitude? With the hatred that you and your pack here so obviously feel for us, forgetting that we are human beings with thoughts and feelings too? Forgetting that we too want to be close to God? But wait a minute....all the lies you have heard and read must really be true, so you have to try to burn as many of us at the stake as possible, right? 
Ya'll are funny....and ineffective. If you want me to leave the Mormon church, you are not doing a good job of convincing me why. Keep trying!
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/9/2002 6:34 am  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (151 of 191)  
 
  98.151 in reply to 98.149  
 
To stay in a place that teaches a false doctrine, even for fellowship, when you know the doctrine is false, makes one a hypocrite! I believe it was Jesus Himself that said that hypocrites had no place with God! And we are the Christians that care, or we wouldn't be warning you in the first place. And apparently you believe in pre-trib rapture, which is also a lie from the pits of Hell! There will be "A" second coming of Christ, when all eyes shall see Him. He doesn't sneak, no one worthy will be left behind, and it will happen at the end of the tribulation. You should read those verses in the Bible that tell of Christians being persecuted and killed during the tribulation! How can this be, if the Lord whisks us off before them? No it's not those saved during the trib. At His second coming, He will collect "ALL" the saints! How can He collect 
"ALL" the saints if He already has most of them, as some believe?
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/9/2002 6:40 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (152 of 191)  
 
  98.152 in reply to 98.151  
 
Look, why don't you just damn me to hell now? If it weren't for them, I would not go to church at all. I am an abused child, my family has abandoned me. If it were not for those non christians, I would surely be burning a lot sooner then usual. You people are sick. God is nothing like you say he is. If I am of the Devil, so be it. But you know me not, you know not how much I love God. My faith in Him is something that does not belong to a church. I go to church not to follow but to HELP people. You know they help me when no one else will? When other "Christians" will just continue to hurt me BADLY?!?!?!? 
I will say where I am. 

You don't know what I believe. I'm still learning, and I make mistakes. Damn, I'm only 20! Who knows where I will be in 10 years? I only know what is right for me now, and that I want my children to have a foundation in God, what I NEVER had. How can you be so predjudiced and hateful and call yourself a Christian? It's because of people like you, who use Christ to validate their hatred and nastiness that I almost died in the first place. God have mercy on you!
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/9/2002 6:44 am  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (153 of 191)  
 
  98.153 in reply to 98.150  
 
The "Book of Mormon is offered online, but that's not where I got it. I got it before I fully came to God wondering which denomination was right. You can find them in any second hand book store, like Goodwill! 
What you call hatred, we call concern! We are told to help those brothers or sisters who err from the faith! So, we are just doing the job God gave us! In saying you want to be close to God, then you should read and live God's Word and God's Word alone! Not Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Pentecostal, doctrine! 
No doctrine can teach you the truth other than that of God! 
<<<Ya'll are funny....and ineffective. If you want me to leave the Mormon church, you are not doing a good job of convincing me why. Keep trying!>>> 

We have done our job, so this is your worry! We didn't ask you to do anything but to read and believe God's Word, instead of Joseph Smiths. 
One will get you saved, the other will get you seared! That is your decision! 




May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/9/2002 6:47 am  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (154 of 191)  
 
  98.154 in reply to 98.152  
 
God says you will known as His by your fruit! Reading your posts pretty well makes your fruit look rotten, with all the venom-spewing you're doing! Do you see anyone cussing you here? But then the truth does tend to tick one off!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/9/2002 6:52 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (155 of 191)  
 
  98.155 in reply to 98.153  
 
I've never really read "Joseph Smith's Word" 
Like I said....hateful...predjudiced....all of you 

You have no concern for me...no love.... 

Concern....that's funny. 

Everyone thinks that by bashing others and what they believe that they are doing God's work. By saying that everyone but them is from the Devil that they are doing God's work. 

Just love your neighbor as yourself, and THEN you will be doing God's work. 

You think I'm a lost cause? Look in the mirror. 

Peace out, I've dealt with enough crazies on Delphi
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/9/2002 6:54 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (156 of 191)  
 
  98.156 in reply to 98.154  
 
No, idiots tick me off. People who think that they already know everything. So tell me. Who all are going to heaven? I need a list of names. What will happen to the rest of us? What is hell REALLY like? What's in store for you in heaven? 
No scripture please. You should have this memorized, u do know, don't you??? 

Ya'll are sick!
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/9/2002 6:56 am  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (157 of 191)  
 
  98.157 in reply to 98.152  
 
Look, I used to be as mad at the world as you. I used to make the same excuses about being abused, because I was. But the fact is, when you come to God, you need to put the past in the past and live for Jesus and your future with Him. You say you want Jesus in your childrens life and I agree. But taking them to a Mormon church is going to teach them heresies that will affect their salvation. It will not teach them God's Word, but Josephs! As I said, I understand all that you want for you and yours, but you should check into and believe what you are going to accept, before you accept it! One should not make themself a hypocrite by associating with those they are not in agreement with!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/9/2002 7:01 am  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (158 of 191)  
 
  98.158 in reply to 98.156  
 
2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 
There is no help for one who refuses it! Only God knows the answers to these questions! Ask Him. And if He tells you what we have, will you argue with Him too, instead of reading and finding out for yourself?

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/21/2002 9:26 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (159 of 191)  
 
  98.159 in reply to 98.152  
 
Hello, I'm passing through, and I've picked up on your pain and frustration here. It must be awful to have been abused as a child. I'm sure we all come from our own private pain. And I'm glad you have found fellowship with kind people. 
I would urge you, now, to consider a verse in a book that has only one chapter--Jude. See verse 3--contend (argue vigorously) for the faith once (according to Vine's Greek dictionary, that means once and *for all time*) delivered to the saints. 

That means there are no new doctrines. All the doctrines God wants us to believe, He gave to us long ago. 

Plus, He gave promises like, "I will watch over my Word to perform it." 

If God could keep His Word then, He can keep it forever. 

(If not, He's not much of a god. And yes, he says there are other gods, but they are demons, by the way.) 

If you don't believe me, look up a Bible on line, find one with a good concordance (index) and look up gods and demons and spirits. 

Also consider 2 Corinthians 11 that talks about other gospels and other jesuses and other spirits--other spirits would confirm other jesuses and other gospels as true, wouldn't they--and 

***Galatians 1:9 that says anyone bringing another gospel than Paul taught is cursed.*** 

We must be very careful what we believe and whom we listen to. Please read 1 and 2 Timothy. There are many out there who speak the language of Zion, but have the wrong definitions. 

Definitions, Paul said, that can get you cursed. 

Take care, and the Lord bless you as you search for His truth. 

Hugs, 
Maggie
 
  
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   From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/21/2002 11:18 pm  
To:  ALL   (160 of 191)  
 
  98.160 in reply to 98.159  
 
This is not to hurt anyone's feelings. My desire is to make seekers aware of what major denominations believe about Mormonism. 
Mormonism claims to be Christian, and the speak the language of Zion. And maybe the people are Christian, God is the judge of what light and truth individuals have received. 

But as a *group*, their definitions are too far removed from the Bible's for Bible-believing denominations to consider them Christian: 

Presbyterian Church statement on LDS 
http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/wmd/eir/mormon.htm 

Southern Baptist statement on LDS 
http://www.namb.net/root/resources/beliefbulletins/cults/mormons.asp 

United Methodist statement on LDS 
http://www.gc2000.org/pets/cal/TEXT/c0806.asp
 
  
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From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/21/2002 11:29 pm  
To:  ALL   (161 of 191)  
 
  98.161 in reply to 98.160  
 
Considering Galatians 1:9, and how we should be ready always to give a reason for the hope within us to anyone who asks, whom the god of this age had blinded less they see the glorious truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I've posted some websites that can help us find truth and bring it to others. 
There are those who will say these articles are *anti-* certain *people*. They are not. True Christians are not *anti* *anyone.* We are pro-truth, and we love those who have been led astray. 

http://carm.org/cults.htm 

http://www.carm.org/lds/attack.htm 

http://watchman.org/cults/jesuses.htm 

http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare.shtml 

http://www.leaderu.com/wri-table1/table1.html 

http://exmormon.org/templex.htm 

http://www.caic.org.au/lds/sinner.htm 

http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/isa1.html 

http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm 

http://antimormon.8m.com/baskinchp10.html 

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/temple_ritual.htm 

http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html 

http://www.concordance.com Go to Y, find Anne Eliza Young and read about being Brigham's 19th wife....
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/22/2002 7:36 am  
To:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   (162 of 191)  
 
  98.162 in reply to 98.161  
 
You are anti, your hatred is clear behind your "love". Wanna know why I stay with the church? Because the hypocrite ratio is very low. People like you spend too much time bashing others, and you make a poor attempt to mask it with love and "concern for their souls". You don't give a poot about anyone's but your own, and it's your own you need to be watching with all the misguided mess you spew. The Church teaches us to find what we have in common with ALL religions, not just Christianity, and learn how to better love our neighbor. Christ taught to love all our neighbors. You all just love those who believe as you do. Stop the hate! It's sick, and it's the reason why this world is in such dissarray now. I may not be with the church in ten years, but I sure as hell will not be with these ones that just have to bash others who do not believe as they do. God is knowledge, infinite knowledge. Stop limiting yourself. 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 1/22/02 10:45:54 AM ET by CMEFLY2001 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/22/2002 12:55 pm  
To:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   (163 of 191)  
 
  98.163 in reply to 98.161  
 
Hi Maggie,

 

Thank you for your Excellent Postings and the Excellent links.

 

Those links provide excellent information. It takes only a quick glance to see that Mormonism is the pit of hell. I applaud your Love and Courage to provide the Truth of Jesus to people that are so in hurt and so in need.

 

Hurting people say hurting & hateful things, Im sure that when he calms down and gives his pain to the Real Living Jesus he will be Eternally thankful for your postings.

 

Thanks!

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/22/2002 2:11 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (164 of 191)  
 
  98.164 in reply to 98.163  
 
Dude, 
You need help. It's sad that you spew so much hatred, but have crosses in your sig. Christ is not present in your heart, and you need to repent.
 
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/22/2002 4:29 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (165 of 191)  
 
  98.165 in reply to 98.163  
 
Thank you, David, for your understanding, encouragement, and obvious love of deceived people. 
I'm afraid our angry friend here illustrated perfectly the article on whining. 

They tell us our religion is an abomination--yes, that's what Joseph Smith said. And at recent conferences, the current prophet agrees our religions are abominations, "although not the good people in them." 

Now, the prophet differentiates between us and our beliefs, if we are to believe the prophet. According to him, this is quite possible. I believe it is, of course, I'm doing the same thing. 

But Mormons who accuse us of hating them, evidently don't believe Dallin Oaks can do this. 

Or else Oaks has told them something else privately--that he hates us and that they should, too. 

Our friend's harsh words are very different from those of Dallin Oaks. One way or another, he makes Oaks look like a liar. 

Very sad.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/22/2002 5:31 pm  
To:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   (166 of 191)  
 
  98.166 in reply to 98.165  
 
Hi,

 

Good point!

 

There is no reason for the outrageous personal attacks that non-Christians are so quick to levy at Christians on this forum so there must be some deep seated anger and bitterness issues going on inside of them.

 

Well heres to looking past the anger and bitterness and to loving them as Jesus Loves them and gave His life for us and them!

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/22/2002 7:57 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (167 of 191)  
 
  98.167 in reply to 98.166  
 
>>Well heres to looking past the anger and bitterness and to loving them as Jesus Loves them and gave His life for us and them!<< 
Amen. The real Jesus, not the son of an exalted man. The One who paid it all, not just part of it with the rest left up to us. 

God bless you, too. 

Maggie 


 
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/23/2002 10:26 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (168 of 191)  
 
  98.168 in reply to 98.166  
 
Hi, David, my heart goes out to those who listen to a man who tells them God is an exalted man, that you have to work to keep your salvation, and we can become gods. 
I would be very, very careful basing my eternal destiny on anyone who says the truth has been lost and he can restore it. 

That's been done, or words to that effect, by Jim Jones, whose people took poisoned Kool-Aid, by David Koresh, whose people burned up in Waco, by Heaven's Gate's "Do," whose people committed suicide.... 

It's too easy to set up your own religion when you appeal to reason with that story, and to the people's need for exclusivity, or to their need not to believe the Gospel because of some rebellion or unbelief. 

Here, is about 1/4 of an article about the court trials of Joseph Smith: http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm#THE 

"Joseph Smith's own mother wrote that "a man, by the name of Josiah Stoal, came from Chenango county, New York, with the view of getting Joseph to assist him in digging for a silver mine. He came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye." (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith The Prophet..., by Lucy Smith, 1853, pages 91-92)" and much more from the article about Joseph Smith's money digging, how he said he struck wood like a treasure chest, but because of an enchantment, it moved deeper.... 

The article says that IN COURT, Joseph Smith said he had special glasses that allowed him to see buried treasure: 

"PRISONER [JOSEPH SMITH] brought before Court March 20, 1826. Prisoner examined: SAYS that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra ***he PRETENDED to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania***" 

"...that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. ..." 

"Arad Stowel sworn: says that he went to see whether prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a book upon a white cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent, hold the stone to the candle, turn his head to book, and read. The deception appeared so palpable that witness went off disgusted." 

" McMaster sworn: says he went with Arad Stowel, and likewise came away disgusted. Prisoner pretended to him that he could discover objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle; that prisoner rather declined looking into a hat at his dark coloured stone, as he said that it hurt his eyes." 

Here, it gets as "deep" as his buried treasures: 

"Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know there it was; and that prisoner, Thompson, and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; 

that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, told how the chest was situated. 

After digging several feet, struck upon something sounding like a board or plank. Prisoner would not look again, 

pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried, [which] came all fresh to his mind. 

That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. 

Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner's professed skill; that the board which he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them ..." 

An enchantment??? 

"And therefore the Court find the Defendant guilty. Costs: Warrant, 19c. Complaint upon oath, 25 1/2c. Seven witnesses, 87 1/2c. Recognisances, 25c. Mittimus, 19c. Recognisances of witnesses, 75c. Subpoena, 18c. - $2.68." 

Continued...
 
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/23/2002 10:29 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (169 of 191)  
 
  98.169 in reply to 98.166  
 
Continued from above post... 
The article also shows a forgery which someone uses to try to show the trial never happened, by changing the names so that Josiah Stowel instead of Joseph Smith would be reported to be on trial. 

Here's where Lucy Smith's words come in--she wrote that "a man, by the name of Josiah Stoal, came from Chenango county, New York, with the view of getting Joseph to assist him in digging for a silver mine. He came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye." (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith The Prophet..., by Lucy Smith, 1853, pages 91-92) 

"Moreover, it contradicts the bill of Constable Philip De Zeng which Wesley Walters discovered. De Zeng wrote in his bill that he wanted $1.25 for "Serving Warrant on Joseph Smith..." He also wrote concerning his "Attendance with Prisoner two days & 1 nigh[t]..." 

"The fact that Wesley P. Walters' discovery of the 1826 bill of Justice Neely confirms the accuracy of the transcript can hardly be disputed by anyone who takes a close look at the evidence. We have already shown that the statement on the Neely bill that Joseph Smith was a "Glass looker" fits very well with the contents of the transcript which has been published. 

Moreover, Neely's bill provides some very specific evidence. It states that the trial took place on "March 20, 1826," and this is precisely the date found in the published account of the trial: "Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826." (Fraser's Magazine, Feb. 1873, page 229) In Albert Neely's bill the fee for this case is listed as "2.68," and this is the exact figure found in the printed record: "Costs:... $2.68." 

In light of this evidence, it seems impossible to continue to deny the authenticity of the court record." 

"Some Mormon scholars have recently argued that Joseph Smith was examined before Justice Neely but was exonerated. In a paper entitled, "It's Time to Halt the Nonsense About Joseph Smith's So-called '1826 Trial,' " page 4, Gerry L. Ensley wrote: "The conclusion is, therefore, inescapable that Smith was found 'innocent' at the March 20, preliminary examination." We can not agree with this statement. 

Besides the Neely transcript which shows that Joseph Smith was found "guilty," the earliest known printed statement by A. W. Benton (1831) indicates that Joseph Smith was "arrested as a disorderly person, tried and condemned before a court of Justice." (Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, page 120) 

On March 8, 1842, Joel K. Noble, who had acquitted Joseph Smith of some charges brought against him in 1830 (see History of the Church, vol. 1, pages 91-96), wrote a letter in which he spoke of Joseph Smith's "first trial"  i.e., the case before Justice Neely. According to Noble, Smith "was condemned" at that time. (Joseph Smith's Bainbridge, N.Y., Court Trials, by Wesley P. Walters, Part 2, pages 132-33) 

"Wesley Walters gives this information: "Both before and during the examination Joseph remained under guard, with Constable De Zeng in 'attendance with Prisoner two days & 1 night,' referring to the day of the examination and the day and night preceding. Since the evidence appeared sufficient to show that Smith was guilty as charged, he was ordered held for trial." (Ibid., p. 139) 

So, it was indeed Stowel who was deceived by Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith on trial and convicted, according to the article, not Stowel. 

Again, this is not to hurt the feelings of nice people here. 

If I belonged to a church that claimed it had the restored truth of a lost gospel, I'd want to be very sure the one whose "truth" I believed and whose teachings I was basing my eternal destiny on, was not a fraud. And I'm afraid this is. 

God bless all who read this article. 

Sincerely, 
Maggie 

 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/24/2002 10:12 am  
To:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   (170 of 191)  
 
  98.170 in reply to 98.169  
 
You all show more hatred towards mankind than any mormon. We do not believe that your religions are abominations. I would not be a member if they did. But they DO teach religious tolerance, something which you know nothing about. I am not angry. Why should I be? I just think you all need therapy. Oh! Another personal attack! Ban me, why don't ya? Who in thier right mind would want to frequent such a trash heap as this forum? All of you need to take a good look at your lives. Your words betray you. You are not Christians. REAL followers of Christ would not act as you do. Satan takes on many forms. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/24/2002 1:44 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (171 of 191)  
 
  98.171 in reply to 98.170  
 
So you are saying that Satan uses this forum to criticize himself, but Satan isnt using the Mormons who are Tolerant and supportive of All of Satans schemes and religions. Not very smart of Satan is it!

 

You know in examining your statement it really looks like you think Satan is a schizophrenic who is out to ruin himself and to do it publicly. 

 

Or is it that Satan is not in favor of this forum exposing his dirty little deceptions and deeds and that Satan is very supportive of those (Mormons Included) who go along with the deceptions of Satan.

 

The Choice is yours,

Choose Wisely!



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/24/2002 1:56 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (172 of 191)  
 
  98.172 in reply to 98.171  
 
You are a racist, prejudiced horrible person. I'm reporting you to delphi for discrimination. I hope they shut you down. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/24/2002 2:00 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (173 of 191)  
 
  98.173 in reply to 98.172  
 
LOL So thats your reply?

 

What ever happened to thought, logic, reason and debate?

 

All the Best!

David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/24/2002 2:04 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (174 of 191)  
 
  98.174 in reply to 98.173  
 
You do NOT wish me the best, you wish me dead just like all other hateful fundies who turn good people away from religion. If you practiced half of what you preached, and all those like you, the world would be a much better place. 
So which "Christian" church is right? Catholic, Baptist, Protestant???? You all are sick, very very sick. 

Get the crosses off your sig, you insult Christ with your hatred. Stop wishing people the best when you curse them. You are a hypocrite and a liar. If you showed half as much love REAL LOVE as you do hate, I'm sure many would turn to you for guidance. You're worse than ITFIGURES on his forum going on and on about Christian Contemporary Music. You ALL are loopy, if you ask me. 

Still a Mormon here, your "love" hasn't changed me a bit. And I do hope they shut you down.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/24/2002 2:13 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (175 of 191)  
 
  98.175 in reply to 98.174  
 
Actually I do wish you the Best!!

 

And all the Best that Life in Jesus Includes.

 

You know that according to the Bible unless you are Born Again Spiritually that a person is Spiritually not alive, so actually I very much want you to be Alive, Born Again to be both physically and Spiritually Alive and well!!

 

All The Very Best!!
David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2001   1/24/2002 2:14 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (176 of 191)  
 
  98.176 in reply to 98.175  
 
Dude, you are sealing your own fate, and I don't mean in a good way. You're truly blind if YOU think you'll get to heaven. God don't like ugly baby, and you are as ugly in manner as they come. How can people be so blind? God is infinite knowledge, and here you go trying to put blinders on everyone you see. Leave that crap to yourself, and leave people who don't believe as you do alone. We are ALL God's children, not just you and your churchmembers. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 1/24/02 5:16:23 PM ET by CMEFLY2001 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/24/2002 2:19 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001   (177 of 191)  
 
  98.177 in reply to 98.176  
 
Hi,

 

Can you please provide the Reference for your quote we are all Gods children.

 

Which book of Mormon is that in?

 

Im just trying to find out if you are quoting Mormonism or what your reference point is.

 

All the Best!!

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    1/24/2002 7:18 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001 unread  (178 of 191)  
 
  98.178 in reply to 98.176  
 
We are all God's children. Not a one of us would be here without God. But scripture says, 
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." 

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." 

As you said, no one denomination is right, but the Word of God is! If we follow God's Word, we will go to God! If we follow man's, such as Joseph Smith or Armstrong or anyone who does not follow the Word of God like we're supposed to, then we are doomed. David just states the truth! He, as a Christian should be, is worried about you following Joseph Smith to Hell, instead of Jesus to Glory! And if you look at your own posts; the tolerance, patience, and understanding we receive when we devote ourselves to God; is quite lacking in you! Apparently the religion you follow doesn't teach these "Fruits" of Jesus. this should be a red flag in itself. There are none here that know everything, but we do know a false religion. If nothing else, the fact that they are teaching other than the Word of God, should scare you off! 

1 Timothy 1:3 "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine," 

1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;" 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  CMEFLY2002   1/25/2002 5:57 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (179 of 191)  
 
  98.179 in reply to 98.177  
 
Since you banned me like the freaking coward that you are, I could not reply to you. But that is okay. I do not need scripture to tell me that we are all God's children. Let me tell you something. If anyone is going to burn in hell, it will be you. And you will burn in the hell of your own creation, created by your own senseless and evil acts. God's light does not shine very brightly within you. You have no idea what God is, otherwise you'd act with more love than you do. You are a hypocrite and a liar. If blindness is the only way that you want to live your life, so be it! I'm off to bigger and better things. 
Ta ta! 

Idiot.
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    1/25/2002 3:06 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2002 unread  (180 of 191)  
 
  98.180 in reply to 98.179  
 
All you had to do was be even remotely civil and you wouldnt have been banned.

 

I still hope all the Best for you!

 

Since you so dislike me and this forum it is best that you not come here and instead go to another forum where you do not find it necessary to post in such a offensive manner.

 

I always find it interesting that someone would come to a forum under a fake name and then post like a monster all because no one really knows who you are.

 

Just a thought,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/25/2002 11:39 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2001 unread  (181 of 191)  
 
  98.181 in reply to 98.170  
 
Joseph Smith said all the creeds of his day--which haven't changed up to now--were abominations. 
He said the angel told him that, or his alleged vision of Jesus, I forget which. 

You say not. Then you don't know these prophets of yours, on whose teachings you base your eternal destiny! 

I know Mormonism teaches a lot of good and practical things. But I'm afraid they won't get you to heaven. 

Here is a speech by Dallin Oaks at a recent conference, posted to me by a Mormon friend. It says God has a human body, for starters, and scroll down to the last paragraph to see what I mean about thinking our creeds are abominations: 

"In common with the rest of Christianity, we believe in a Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, we testify that these three members of the Godhead are three separate and distinct beings. We also testify that God the Father is not just a spirit but is a glorified person with a tangible body, as is his resurrected Son, Jesus Christ." 

"By contrast, many Christians reject the idea of a tangible, personal God and a Godhead of three separate beings. They believe that God is a spirit and that the Godhead is only one God. In our view, these concepts are evidence of the falling away we call the Great Apostasy. 
We maintain that the concepts identified by such nonscriptural terms as the incomprehensible mystery of God and the mystery of the Holy Trinity are attributable to the ideas of Greek philosophy. These philosophical concepts transformed Christianity in the first few centuries following the deaths of the Apostles." 

"For example, philosophers then maintained that physical matter was evil and that God was a spirit without feelings or passions. Persons of this persuasion, including learned men who became influential converts to Christianity, had a hard time accepting the simple teachings of early Christianity: an Only Begotten Son who said he was in the express image of his Father in Heaven and who taught his followers to be one as he and his Father were one, and a Messiah who died on a cross and later appeared to his followers as a resurrected being with flesh and bones." 

"The collision between the speculative world of Greek philosophy and the simple, literal faith and practice of the earliest Christians produced sharp contentions that threatened to widen political divisions in the fragmenting Roman empire. This led Emperor Constantine to convene the first churchwide council in A.D. 325. The action of this council of Nicaea remains the most important single event after the death of the Apostles in formulating the modern Christian concept of deity." 

"The Nicene Creed erased the idea of the separate being of Father and Son by defining God the Son as being of one substance with the Father. Other councils followed, and from their decisions and the writings of churchmen and philosophers there came a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine in which the orthodox Christians of that day lost the fulness of truth about the nature of God and the Godhead." 

"The consequences persist in the various creeds of Christianity, which declare a Godhead of only one being and which describe that single being or God as incomprehensible and without body, parts, or passions. One of the distinguishing features of the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is its rejection of all of these postbiblical creeds." 

"In the process of what we call the Apostasy, the tangible, personal God described in the Old and New Testaments was replaced by the abstract, incomprehensible deity defined by compromise with the speculative principles of Greek philosophy. The received language of the Bible remained, but the so-called hidden meanings of scriptural words were now explained in the vocabulary of a philosophy alien to their origins." 

"In the language of that philosophy, God the Father ceased to be a Father in any but an allegorical sense. He ceased to exist as a comprehensible and compassionate being. And the separate identity of his Only Begotten Son was swallowed up in a philosophical abstraction that attempted to define a common substance and an incomprehensible relationship." 

"These descriptions of a religious philosophy are surely undiplomatic, but I hasten to add that Latter-day Saints do not apply such criticism to the men and women who profess these beliefs. 
We believe that most religious leaders and followers are sincere believers who love God and understand and serve him to the best of their abilities. We are indebted to the men and women who kept the light of faith and learning alive through the centuries to the present day. We have only to contrast the lesser light that exists among peoples unfamiliar with the names of God and Jesus Christ to realize the great contribution made by Christian teachers through the ages. We honor them as servants of God." 

"Then came the First Vision. An unschooled boy, seeking knowledge from the ultimate source, saw two personages of indescribable brightness and glory and heard one of them say, while pointing to the other, This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! (JSH 1:17.) The divine 
teaching in that vision began the restoration of the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. God the Son told the boy prophet that all the creeds of the churches of that day were an abomination in his sight (JSH 1:19). We affirm that this divine declaration was a 

Well, it cuts off there, but you see he "affirms" it, and I recall he said that you believe they are abominations, "but not the good people in them." LOL, thanks a lot! : / 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 1/26/02 2:52:34 AM ET by Maggie  
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/25/2002 11:49 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2002 unread  (182 of 191)  
 
  98.182 in reply to 98.179  
 
>>You have no idea what God is, otherwise you'd act with more love than you do. You are a hypocrite and a liar. If blindness is the only way that you want to live your life, so be it! I'm off to bigger and better things. 
>>Ta ta! 
>>Idiot.<< 
Well, that was Mormon love? 

I'm afraid you prove my point, friend. Here are other quotes about as nice as yours, from http://www.caic.org.au/lds/attack.htm 

A Response to Latter-day Saints Who Say, "We Never Criticize Christian Churches" 
Compiled by Bill McKeever 

A common response to Christians who question the teachings of Mormonism is to accuse them of being contentious and unloving. Often Mormons will question the "Christianity" of the person and proudly claim that his church, the Mormon Church, never criticizes other beliefs therefore no one else should either. As the following quotes demonstrate, Mormons leaders have long criticized Christians, and oftentimes very harshly. 

The Doctrine and Covenants (1:30) leaves no doubt to the Mormon teaching of exclusivity when it says the LDS church is, "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased ..." Brigham Young (Mormonism's Second President) -- 

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73). 

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171). 

... "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10). 
************ 
...and there are many more in this article at the website, from our Mormon friends who don't consider us abominations. So they say. 

Maggie, shaking her head in amazement... 

 
  
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  From:  Demophobe   1/26/2002 2:48 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (183 of 191)  
 
  98.183 in reply to 98.180  
 
David. I am new to your forum but old to Delphi. I have been very upset over the condition of many of the "fundie" forums here on Delphi. They ban and censor everyone, even those who are polite. But I have been impressed by your treatment of this Mormon. I commend you and Maggie for your patience with him. May I ask if you ahve permenantly banned him so that I may determine whether or not I should respond to him. I would like to respond to him, but I understand that he is acting like a troll right now, and it is perfectly logical for you to gag him. 

Come visit my forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/demophobe 
For unhindered disscusion of Biblical topics.( ie. no gagging) 
The Bible has only one interpretation, but infinite application. 

" If God does not exist, how did we figure it out" C.S.Lewis
 
  
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  From:  Demophobe   1/26/2002 5:21 pm  
To:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   (184 of 191)  
 
  98.184 in reply to 98.182  
 
It is interesting to note that the Mormons refuse to discuss the Journal Of Discourses. I had two Mormon missionaries coming to my house recently. They made about seven or eight visits over a period of two months. I pointed to the obvious false doctrine of Smith and Young that is in the Journal of Discourses and they came back the next time satying that the Journal was a document that was no longer adhered to by the Mormon Church. In other wordss the hedged the argument. The Journal Of Discoursers is an embarrassment to the Mormon Church

Come visit my forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/demophobe 
For unhindered disscusion of Biblical topics.( ie. no gagging) 
The Bible has only one interpretation, but infinite application. 

" If God does not exist, how did we figure it out" C.S.Lewis
 
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/27/2002 10:49 pm  
To:  Demophobe   (185 of 191)  
 
  98.185 in reply to 98.184  
 
You are so right about their embarrassment. And yes, they do hedge and say they no longer listen to Brigham Young. In fact, they treat him like a demented old man. BY said he had yet to tell anyone wrong, and his teachings are as good as gospel. But they say, no, we don't believe Adam is God or Michael, or other strange sayings of Brigham Young.... 
http://www.frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/strangby.htm 

One place seekers of truth can read Journal of Discourses is at Concordance.com, where they can do a word search on God, blood, and marriage, for starters. Very interesting starters! 

Let them see what the second so-called prophet had to say. 

Speaking of marriage, they can also find a book there, by his 19th wife, Ann Eliza Young. She did not want to marry BY but he followed her around, staring at her with "those eyes" and he came to her house and persuaded her parents to give her to him in marriage. They pretty much pushed her into it, saying it would be such an honor. After a time, she left him. 

For another look at early Mormonism, one might find the g-dau of John D. Lee has an interesting story. Lee was tried for being an instigator in the heinous Mountain Meadows Massacre against a wagon-train of men, women and little children passing through Utah. They even told the local Indians that magic would protect them if they helped in the attack. 

Magic, as in that which they denied Joseph Smith ever pretended to use to dig up buried treasure. 

The author is Thelma ("Granny") Geer, the book is _Mormonism, Mama and Me_. (Not at Concordance.com)She also discusses her g-ma, who took baths one leg at a time, afraid to totally remove the "protective" undergarment. 

Geer died a few years ago, in her 80s. You can read articles by her at http://watchman.org/subindex.htm. 

Thank you for your kind invitation, but I've visited un-gagged websites. The Mormons were so rude and *obscene* at Unmoderated Mormonism and LDS Roundtable, they certainly didn't represent Mormonism well, and for people who carry the name of Jesus, albeit "another jesus," as Paul talks about, they didn't represent their jesus well, either. 

They gave no one anything to be jealous about, or to desire in a religion! They used no common sense! It was so counter-productive, and I pointed that out several times, but they were like they were possessed. And not by the Holy Spirit. 

I just decided not to cast pearls before swine, and brushed the dust off my feet and left their websites to them to wallow in their false doctrines. Very sad. 

Thank you for your kind words, though. :) 

Maggie 



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Edited 1/28/02 2:09:22 AM ET by Maggie  
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   1/27/2002 11:43 pm  
To:  CMEFLY2002 unread  (186 of 191)  
 
  98.186 in reply to 98.179  
 
Telling the truth is part of what love is. 
I'm sorry you've been so hurt by so-called Christians. Every group has those who miss the point and make the group look bad. And I realize you think that includes me. I'm sorry if the truth I told hurts you. 

God knows you and loves you, right where you are, no matter what you've done, no matter what anyone has done to you or said to you. 

Sincerely, 
Maggie
 
  
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  From:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   2/2/2002 1:44 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (187 of 191)  
 
  98.187 in reply to 98.180  
 
Have you seen this article about Mormonism in _The New Yorker_? 
http://www.newyorker.com/FACT/?020121fa_FACT1 

Among other things, it says: 

distinguished Egyptologists, however, each of them came to the same conclusion: the papyri were ordinary Egyptian funerary documents and had nothing at all to do with Abraham. 

This disclosure brought forth various defenses by Nibley and other Mormon scholars, who said, in effect, that not all the papyri had been recovered. They proposed that the Book of Abraham was more an inspired reading than an actual translation, but the fact that Smith had also produced a "grammar" of the Egyptian language weakened the theory. Gradually, the protests died down, largely, perhaps, because few members actually resigned from the Church over the issue. Today, even Nibley seems weary of the effort to authenticate the Book of Abraham. In his view, the controversy is of a piece with the entire Judeo-Christian tradition. "Very few scholars even believe that Abraham ever lived," Nibley said 

"Among my great-grandparents, we had at least two who were polygamous," Mitt Romney told me. One of them, a woman named Hannah Hood Hill, wrote a memoir in which she described the difficulty of sharing her husband with another woman. "She talks about how she and her husband wept together when he was asked by Brigham Young to marry another woman," Romney said. "My great-grandmother prepared a room for this new wife and knitted her a rag rug. Brigham Young ultimately asked him to take five additional wives. It was the great trial of the early Mormon pioneers." 

My dad had something like two hundred and thirty-two first cousins," Romney said. 

Although Romney, like other Mormons, defends the practice of polygamy in the early days of the Church by pointing to a surplus of women in Utah, census reports for the time show roughly equal numbers of men and women. 

Faithful women were naturally drawn to men who they believed could guarantee eternal life; in fact, Brigham Young authorized women to leave their husbands if they could find a man "with higher power and authority" than their present husband. Apparently, many of them did, as shown by the rate of divorce at the time. 

After the 1890 Manifesto officially ended plural marriage, thousands of Mormons in good standing, including a number of apostles, continued to marry multiple wives in secret. When Congress demanded that furtive polygamists be rooted out, Joseph F. Smith, who was a nephew of the founder and became president of the Church, issued a Second Manifesto, in 1906, in which he declared that anyone who participated in the practice would be excommunicated. Nonetheless, Smith himself continued to perform secret plural marriages. 

It is estimated that there are between forty thousand and a hundred thousand people living in polygamous situations in Utah, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, and California. 

"I believed that plural marriages couldn't be lived in this lifetime," she saidbut she felt that it wasn't her place to question her husband. At his urging, she wrote a letter to Mary and invited her "into the family." 

At night, he would sit between Vicky and Mary, watching television and holding hands with both of them. "We'd act like brother and sisters until a certain time," Vicky said. "Then he'd either go upstairs or downstairs. There were times when I made myself put her laundry on her bed just to see his robe on her bedpost. That made it real for me." 

In the third year of the relationship, Gary stopped having sex with Vicky. "He told me I had already committed 'spiritual fornication' against him," she said. "I guess he meant that I was rebelling against his authority." She asked him for a divorce. "He put his hand to the square, like they do when they're casting out evil spirits," she recalled. "He started praying for my death. 

Scott Howell was shocked by Prunty's story. Since leaving the shelter, she had met other women like her, and she told Howell about the existence of incestuous clans, in which birth defects were common. 

[More about this legacy at http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html ] 

The basic unit of salvation in Mormonism is the family, not the individual, and for many women in the Church the emphasis on eternal family unity is deeply appealing. 

The basic unit of salvation in Mormonism is the family, not the individual, and for many women in the Church the emphasis on eternal family unity is deeply appealing. 

Tolstoy about Mormonism, in which the great novelist reportedly said that "on the whole he preferred a religion which professed to have dug its sacred books out of the earth to one which pretended that they were let down from Heaven." 

************* 

"They were let down from Heaven"? Is he talking about my Savior? 

That's not much of an endorsement for the false religion of Mormonism, yet they quote it as a compliment. Strange reasoning, Mormon reasoning. A huge false religion, like a *city* built on sand. Matthew 7:24-27. "And great was the fall of it." 

Maggie 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    2/2/2002 4:41 pm  
To:  Maggie (HUGSMAGGIE)   (188 of 191)  
 
  98.188 in reply to 98.187  
 
Hi Maggie,

 

You have really hit on the inner core of this Mormon dilemma.

 

Why do people stay in Mormonism even though it is a Proven scam? As you mentioned that all of their archeology and their version of history has been repeatedly proven to be a hoax by scholars, archeologist, and scientist.

 

When I first started to study the Mormon Beliefs and Practices I was introduced to a couple of Excellent films made by some fairly high ranking Mormons that have left Mormonism and renounced them as a Cult. The films are the  the god makers films named so because the Mormons believe that they are making themselves into gods.

 

The most fascinating part about the video is all of this footage about their leader and their prophets and their elders as they would gather together for a religious meeting for several days at some hotel or business center and all it is, is a bunch of time with prostitutes female/male lots of alcohol, gambling and drugs it is a big party just like the freemasons or some other worldly bunch would have.

 

I kept thinking that if this isnt enough evidence to convince anyone and everyone to leave that Mormon mess then what would they need? It turns out that the Mormons themselves know full well about the behavior of their leaders and the Mormon people themselves actually endorse it. Because at the core Mormonism is sex, and thinking you are a god and doing whatever you want to do as your own god, so of course they dont condemn it they cant wait to get their chance to jump into it.

 

We Christians often actually believe the Mormon propaganda that they are a nice moral family bunch but nothing could be further from the truth and the average Mormon knows it, and now it is time for the average Christian to know it as well.

 

I am just amazed at how spiritual this battle really is, Satan has the Mormons so sold out to their own greed and physical desires that it actually takes a real Spiritual Freeing Encounter for them to renounce Mormonism and to then live in Christianity. Fortunately there are those who are freed from the bondage of Mormonism and go on to live in the freedom of Jesus.

 

To everyone lets keep praying for the Mormons. Praying that Satan and his lies will be kept far away from these people and that the light and the Love of the True Gospel of Jesus will shine into the dark areas to reveal the Love and Freedom in Christ Jesus. It is a battle, a spiritual battle, not a battle of common sense and rationality but by praying in the Spirit I know that many Mormons can be freed from this cult.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  123four   2/4/2002 6:45 am  
To:  CMEFLY2001 unread  (189 of 191)  
 
  98.189 in reply to 98.141  
 
You can find that answer in the scripture. 
 
  
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  From:  Joseph (BLAKSHEEP)    2/13/2002 8:02 am  
To:  CMEFLY2001 unread  (190 of 191)  
 
  98.190 in reply to 98.135  
 


Mormons don't worship the dead. They do work for them, so that those who have not heard the gospel may see our Father in Heaven. Please take a look at 1 Corinthians: 20-29.
 

In my own genealogy research I have been careful to see if any of my ancestors have been "baptised for the dead" in Mormon-Speak.  I am proud to annonce that there hasn't been a one of them dishonored in this way.



 

            John 6:28,29

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From:  David (DavidABrown)    2/21/2002 5:18 pm  
To:  ALL    
 
    
 
NEW BOOKS FROM CUTTING EDGE BOOKSTORE
www.cuttingedge.org

In a continuing effort to answer our subscriber's requests to provide high-quality, Fundamental Christian books and videos on a wide variety of the issues of the day, Cutting Edge is pleased to announce the arrival of new books and videos in our Bookstore.  We are striving to find materials that will educate you of the key events and subjects of this End of the Age time period, while remaining Biblically true to the key doctrines of the Faith.

In this vein, we offer the following great books and videos:

I.  I.  Bill Schnoebelen -- Former Black Magick Satanist, Bill joined the Masonic Lodge because it was a logical extension of his activities in the coven.  As a Black Magick Wizard, Bill was trained in the Illuminist Plan for the New World Order.  One day, Bill asked his coven leader to train him in the deepest recesses of Satanism.  The coven leader stated that he could take Bill deep into Satanism, but if he wanted to go to the deepest level, he must go to the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City where the most powerful Satanism was practiced.  When Jesus Christ saved Bill Schnoebelen, He was saving a man who had "been there, done that" in threedistinct areas of Satanism; his books reflect this dichotomy.

Bill Schnoebelen's books:

1.  "Blood On The Doorpost:  Spiritual Warfare Manual" -- Today's spiritual warefare is just as powerful as it was during the time of Jesus' ministry! As the Holy Spirit withdraws His Restraining Power as Paul said He would do [2 Thess 2], the Enemy of Our Souls is rushing in to carry out spiritual warfare against God's Elect. But, too few Christians know how to battle against the spirit world. Bill Schnoebelen, former Witch, Freemason, and Mormon, teaches you step by step how to wage spiritual warfare using the Blood of Jesus Christ as your power. This manual is for those prayer warriors, pastors, Christian leaders and anyone having trouble getting "Victory In Jesus" in these Last Days!  http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=177

2.  "Wicca:  Satan's Little White Lie" -- Too many well-meaning people are worshipping the "Good Forces" in the Mother Earth religion, Wicca. They believe they are just "in balance with Nature" and are certainly not serving Satan. These people are thoroughly deceived by the Enemy of Our Souls. The problem is that they do not know that they do not know, that they are being duped by the greatest deceiver of all time! By the time you read this book, you will know how to witness to a person involved in Wicca.  http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=180

3.  "Masonry:  Beyond The Light" -- Probably the best single book written for the person beginning to understand Freemasonry.   This book is written for the person who wants the truth of Freemasonry simply, but powerfully, told! Bill Schnoebelen, a former 32 Degree Mason, shows and proves the Satanic roots of Freemasonry. While simply written, this book reveals profound truth about both Visible and Invisible Freemasonry. If you have friends and family who are Freemasons, you need the information this book provides. 
http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=181

4.  "Mormonism's Temple of Doom" -- The unholy mixture of Magick arts into the ceremonies of Mormonism and Freemasonry expose their Satanic roots. Mystical and Magickal routes are always dead end. People need to heed the warnings of the Apostle Paul that Satan can masquerade as an "Angel of Light"? [2 Cor 11:15] Those people who seek power or knowledge through forbidden channels ultimately discover they are unable to control the forces they unleash. All Adepts who employ Ceremonial Magick do so with the hope of gaining supernatural power, but soon discover they cannot control the "Fiery Spirits" of Satan. The systems of Mormonism, Magick, and Masonry claim to lead men to genuine worship of God; however, rather than being God's houses of worship, they are Temples of Doom! This book does the best job yet tying together Mormonism, Satanism, and Freemasonry, proving they are the same system!

With Mormonism being in the Daily News right now because of the Olympics, this book provides timely information, indeed. http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=183

5.  "Whited Sepulchers:  Hidden Language of the Mormon Temple" -- Mormon Temples and Ward Meeting Houses are blossoming all over the world. Temples, bright and dazzling, with "futuristic" needle-like spires, herald the "restored gospel" of Mormonism as revealed to founder Joseph Smith by an "Angel of Light"! Are these temples truly "Houses of the Lord" as the LDS Church proclaims? In "Mormonism's Temple of Doom", former Witch Bill Schnoebelen documents the tight connection between the LDS temple ceremony, Freemasonry, and Witchcraft. That book described the temple ceremony and spoke of the occult architecture of the Salt Lake Temple. This book expands on the subject, boldly displaying the blatant Satanic symbols all over the temple and explaining their meaning. Schnoebelen and his co-author, James Spencer, maintain that these Mormon temples are nothing more than "White Sepulchers". http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=184

6.  "Lucifer Dethroned"  -- Bill's extraordinary testimony of his deliverance from the darkness of Witchcraft into the glorious light of Jesus Christ! Also teaches elementary Spiritual Warfare, and how to witness to those people still practicing Witchcraft and other forms of Satanism. Defending your family is of paramount concern in this book. 
Truly, you will understand the spiritual truth that, for all his mighty power, Lucifer is a defeated foe! 
http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=179

7.  "Video -- Masonry:  The Light Behind Masonry" -- How can a true Born Again Christian, who has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior -- the Light of the World as the Bible calls him -- go into a Masonic initiation ritual  and declare that he is in darkness and searching for light?  Yet, this is exactly what a person does during the first three rituals of Masonry.  Bill thoroughly explores the true spiritual "light" behind Masonry.  You will be shocked! 
http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=182

II.  Dr. Dennis Cuddy, Ph.D. -- Historian and political analyst par excellance, has authored or edited fifteen books and booklets and has served as a senior associate with the U.S. Department of Justice.  Dr. Cuddy has appeared as the Conservative voice on issues on ABC-Radio in New York City, "USA Today", and CBS "Nightwatch".  Dr. Cuddy is considered an expert on the coming New World Order, and of the forces bringing it to fruition.

Dr. Cuddy's books on Cutting Edge Bookstore:

1.  "Now Is The Dawning Of The New Age, New World Order" -- If you ever wanted a thorough chronology -- a succinct timeline -- of the events and historic characters of the encroaching New World Order, this is the book for you. Since most people have not been well trained in real history, this book will enable you to put key events and the leaders who created them, into proper historic perspective. You will be shocked as to how very long this New World Order program has been gradually unfolding. Meticulously documented book. 
http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=186

2.  "Secret Records Revealed:  Secret Links Previously Hidden" -- In 1890, Cecil Rhodes stated that he would start a movement that would, in 100 years, bring in a world government in which there would be no war and only one language. One hundred years later, in 1990, President Bush Senior announced the arrival of the New World Order. Beginning early this century, Rhodes Scholars have been involved with the CFR, the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, international banking, the U.S. Congress, and presidential administrations since Woodrow Wilson. For example, President Clinton - a Rhodes Scholar -- appointed at least 22 Rhodes Scholars to high positions in his administration. This book reveals the source of the conspiracy dedicated to erasing nationalism, and replacing it with a world government. http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=185

3.  "The Globalists:  The Power Elite Exposed" -- Published in July, 2001, two months before the 9/11 attacks, Dr. Cuddy warned, on p. 303: "At the national level, this conditioning of the public might be brought about via certain crises, such as a terrorist attack, or high rate of crime. For the sake of peace and security, people may be willing to give up certain of their freedoms ..." ABCNews.com stated, on 9/11, "Americans divide almost evenly on whether the United States did all it could to prevent these attacks ... Nonetheless, two-thirds ... say they would sacrifice some personal liberties in support of anti-terrorism efforts." If Dr. Cuddy's book, "Secret Records Revealed" could be called, "Untaught History 101", then this book could be called, "Untaught History 102". Listen to a New Age author explain the plan to produce the global government of Antihrist: "As far back as 1917, secret societies 
were planning an artificial threat to bring humanity together into a global government they call the New World Order". Dr. Cuddy explains how this 1917 goal was planned and by whom the plan was executed.  
http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=187

III.  Pastor Michael Bunker -- Author of the four videos on the upcoming "Mark of the Beast" technology.

"A Perilous Time: True Christianity in the Crosshairs" -- Pastor Bunker addresses a subject of which Cutting Edge has been warning for 12 years now -- that the Fundamental Christian is THE REAL target of the Illuminati.  Further, we shall be persecuted by those people who call themselves Christian, but are not!  This book writes confrontationally, for we are living in times demanding that the true Remnant of Jesus Christ shout loudly, longly, and clearly the truth of the Gospel and of the glorious fulfillment of prophecy that heralds the soon coming of our 
Lord.

IV.  Tim Cohen -- Messianic Jew, and journalist.

"Antichrist and A Cup of Tea" --

I was highly skeptical that anyone could know the precise identity of Antichrist before he arose on the world scene. Thus, it was with great doubt that I began reading this well-documented 443 page book. However, by the time I was two-thirds of the way through the book, I was convinced that Antichrist would come from the British Monarchy, from the House of Windsor. Tim Cohen, a Messianic Jew, provides overwhelming evidence, including heavy Antichrist symbolism, that proves his point beyond reasonable doubt. Once you read this book, you will be checking 
out the travel itineraries of key world leaders when they travel to and from Washington, D.C.!! NOTE:  Will be instock about March 1.  http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=178

We at Cutting Edge Ministries are very pleased with these new additions to our bookstore.  Many of your questions will be answered by one or more of these books.  Further, you will be more able to witness to your friends, neighbors, and all people within your Sphere of Influence on these key issues of the time in which we are living.

May Jesus Richly Bless You,
David Bay, Director
www.cuttingedge.org
800-451-8211 Phone
508-761-3338 Fax


The Cutting Edge
http://www.cuttingedge.org 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
